At what point?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11640
Printed Date: 26 Jun 25 at 3:32pm
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Topic: At what point?
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: At what point?
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 9:07am
Does a boat over taking to leeward gain hailing rights?
It's normally me doing the overtaking, but last night my EPS excellence had gained me a good start, full triangle and 2nd beat lead over the fast handicappers, tide as usual was in play with a wind band out to sea, and on the punching tide downwind leg I'd judged better to take a direct line to the mark and pick up more wind (the leeward mark was in the wind band)whilst a Hornet was behind and to the lee but wanting to over take but take a higher line inshore presumably kite driven but with regard to less tide inshore.
So he barely gets his nose level with my stern and starts hailing 'windward boat keep clear' obviously at this point wrongly as I pointed out to him in a gentlemanly stfu way, but with a kite he's quicker and nudges closer to the point he'll clip my boom as it's right out by the lee. The wind variable light 1-2 occasional puff, tide about 1-2 knots against us.
I shall not say at this point what then happened, what I want to know is what should happen?
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Replies:
Posted By: balladsailor
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 10:18am
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Rule 11 is quite clear. As soon as you are overlapped, you become the give way boat, though up to that point you are not required to anticipate the developing situation. rule 15 states that the overlapping boat must give you time and opportunity to keep clear. Once the overlap to leeward is established, the leeward boat has right of way, but does not have puffing rights, and must not sail above her proper course. Will be interested to hear what actually happened!
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 10:44am
Well it is complicated by the route to the mark, I'm single handed dead running aiming at it, he is sailing above the rhumb line (presumably to keep a kite filled and or to go inshore to escape the tide, a simpler solution would have been for him to sail to windward, but he's being blind deaf and stupid so I had to do aggravated ironic discharge at him, then I had to pump a bit to get clear in case he did actually run into me so both now in the wrong but I need to know how wrong I actually was, (other than the pumping bit which is now legitimate in an EPS since Sir Ben's superb example at Weymouth).
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Posted By: balladsailor
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 11:18am
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Unfortunately the route to the mark is somewhat irrelevant, as there is no definition of a proper course for a downwind leg. What appears to be the sensible solution does not always work for everyone. Had he tried to pass to windward you could have, and I guess maybe would have luffed him out of sight! From the other boat's perspective, if he felt he had the speed to power through your lee, it seems to be the best option whilst remaining the right of way boat.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 11:29am
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Proper course varies from boat to boat.
In this case it is the Leeward boats proper course that counts.
What they cannot do though is luff up as their kite collapse as they get affected by your dirty winds because, as we all know, your proper course is always 'in the absence of other boats'....
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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 11:53am
Originally posted by jeffers
In this case it is the Leeward boats proper course that counts.
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Really? That doesnt seem logical. So you are saying that an assym boat can come up behind a dead running Laser and sail below the Laser and force the Laser up to the assyms proper course?
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 11:58am
Originally posted by jeffers
So you are saying that an assym boat can come up behind a dead running Laser and sail below the Laser and force the Laser up to the assyms proper course? |
Exactly so. Do many people really still not know this?
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Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 12:07pm
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I didnt realise that, I can see it now in rule 17:
ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
Thankfully I only very rarely race against assymetrics!
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 12:14pm
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Not just asymettrics of course. Just the same happens if a Laser running by the lee meets say my kite free canoe which sails hot angles.
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Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 12:23pm
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Of course. I just looked at the rules and it seems it would also apply in class racing, if say one Fireball liked to sail the angles on a run and another preferred to dead run and minimise gybes. Of course in that situation it becomes trickier to prove what your proper course would be seeing as people may expect that all boats of the same class would have the same proper course.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 1:18pm
What would be hard to prove is that when you were behind, your proper course was lower than the boat in front, but once overlapped, it was suddenly higher, unless the wind drops and you need to fill your kite, provided the wind dropping has nothing to do with the dirty air from the boat in front, as Jeffers said.
But if the boat is overtaking from slightly below anyway, then I can't see what the problem would be. You aren't sailing above your proper course, therefore you have the rights, provided the other boat has room to keep clear. Has to be said that in that situation, it makes for more sense for the overtaking boat to go to windward if he can, if he can see that the other boat is sailing in a different mode, and so highly unlikely to luff. Chances are, if he has a kite up, he will be boat lengths away in seconds, so luffing would be a bad handicap race tactic.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 1:51pm
What happened, I went round first starboard rounding out to sea, (Wind ENE, land North, next mark dead downwind WSW.) He took a bit of a wider course so was further out to sea and fumbling the hoist, I held the lead having deliberated (I always tend to bear off and gybe deep 'inside' so the upwind boats go past before hoisting so I keep clean(er) air and I"m on starboard, he gybes later further out then starts sailing a higher course headed close to the coast and theoretically less tide, but definitely less wind and shifty.
Initially the wind was such that being sheeted in was faster, but as it veered back to Easterly it was better to sheet right out to clew first and run by the lee, he is now to leeward but climbing towards me almost line astern, then he took the decision to pass under rather than over probably seeing how my course was taking me, then the wind shifted again and buggered his kite. So we were now inches apart and he's pissing me off coming so close, he could easily have stayed out in the wind and just gone, or come high and cleared, but using my magnetic charisma as a means to try and attach himself then calling me windward boat, I realise these are new rules, but they're f**ked up so I called him the way it used to be, i.e you needed to get your nose ahead before luffing and pumped my ass out of there.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by iGRF
I realise these are new rules, but they're f**ked up so I called him the way it used to be, i.e you needed to get your nose ahead before luffing and pumped my ass out of there. |
Not very new rules. My 1989 copy of the rules has very much the same thing: "38.2a a leeward yacht shall not sail above her proper course while an overlap exists...."
The old luffing rights rules were about when you *were* allowed to sail above your proper course, which doesn't seem to be what this is about: he wasn't luffing, he was sailing his proper course.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by GybeFunny
Of course. I just looked at the rules and it seems it would also apply in class racing, if say one Fireball liked to sail the angles on a run and another preferred to dead run and minimise gybes. Of course in that situation it becomes trickier to prove what your proper course would be seeing as people may expect that all boats of the same class would have the same proper course. |
The leeward boat is not usually expected to 'prove' what her proper course was, as long as she gives a plausible or convincing explanation of what it was or why she was not sailing above it.
Case 14 is relevant to a degree
When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat’s proper course, two boats on the same tack converge, the windward boat must keep clear. Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another may have different proper
Originally posted by Rupert
What would be hard to prove is that when you were behind, your proper course was lower than the boat in front, |
Your course, or your proper course before you become overlapped is irrelevant. Rule 17 refers to a boat's proper course while the boats are overlapped.
There's nothing in the rules to prevent a boat, initially clear astern, and perhaps sailing a little below her proper course, from diving down to leeward of a boat ahead and then coming up to her proper course.
Originally posted by Rupert
but once overlapped, it was suddenly higher, unless the wind drops and you need to fill your kite, provided the wind dropping has nothing to do with the dirty air from the boat in front, as Jeffers said. |
Quite right.
Originally posted by Rupert
But if the boat is overtaking from slightly below anyway, then I can't see what the problem would be. You aren't sailing above your proper course, therefore you have the rights, provided the other boat has room to keep clear. |
Room to keep clear won't usually be an issue for a boat coming from astern on a converging overlapped course: There will initially, normally, be plenty of room at the time the boats become overlapped, so rule 15 should not be a problem, and, she would be expected to keep a steady course, so rule 16 will never come on.
Originally posted by Rupert
Has to be said that in that situation, it makes for more sense for the overtaking boat to go to windward if he can, if he can see that the other boat is sailing in a different mode, and so highly unlikely to luff. |
That's a huge 'if'.
In club racing, especially where people are still talking about 'luffing rights', which, remember, used to exist to enable a boat being overtaken to windward to 'defend her wind', I would expect a leeward boat being overtaken to stick it to the windward boat, no matter how bad that would be for both their results. Conversely, I would usually think the polite thing for a faster boat with spinnaker set would be to go below, despite that not being helpful for a boat going downwind by the lee.
Originally posted by Rupert
Chances are, if he has a kite up, he will be boat lengths away in seconds, so luffing would be a bad handicap race tactic. |
Yeah, but if I see a kite boat rolling over the top of me when I've got all white sails up, maybe I just couldn't resist the temptation <g>.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 3:16pm
This wasn't a 'luffing' scenario, this is a blind deaf man not knowing where he should be going next, in a symmetric boat sailing high in crap air he should have just hoisted his kite and sailed straight at the mark, we would never have come even close. So even though no 'luffing rights' exist it's ok for someone to come under you from behind then deliberately move toward you away from the correct direction to the mark and call you higher? And that's not f**ked up?
Later I had another 'twat' in an RS400, luffing me down the 2nd reach which was a bit tighter having dropped his kite, two things he's trying to achieve, obviously 1 not letting me by, but two not allowing me an overlap for water at the bottom mark. I hate being in a slower boat. He's also luffing with a tide on his lee bow lifting him up potentially losing us both ground.
I assume then that I could have called him to sail a proper course and not 'luff'?
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