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Boats for sale
| Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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| Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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List classes of boat for sale |
Youf Sailing |
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Rupert 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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 Topic: Youf SailingPosted: 24 Jul 14 at 2:03pm |
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Don't the Aussies use a squad system too?
Of course, Ben A wasn't really part of the squad in the Finns for the last one, was he? Came in late, out sailed them in the trials and got the nod. Maybe he would have won with more ease this time round if he had spent more time sailing with the others? I am wary of the squad idea, but not to the point of seeing things that aren't really there. Yes, you'll get people outside the system doing well, but you'll get people doing well in a squad who would have failed by themselves. At club level, our Youth Development Squad have been pushing each other hard all year and are now starting to do well in club racing. There is little interest from most of them to do yoof stuff outside the club, but some are sailing regularly in adult fleets, where they feel the company is better of an evening in the bar. 2 of the group are sailing together at the Miracle Nationals soon, and rupertson will be seeing if he can do well at the Lightnings in September. |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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iGRF
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Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
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Posted: 24 Jul 14 at 2:38pm |
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Well as we all know, not everyone wants to win and are happy to be part of a team, which is what's going on over at Downs as well and what was so good about the windsurfing Team fifteen approach, OK so winners naturally percolate through, but that's a useful side effect and if they're the 'sort' that will do the necessary and have the potential to be a bit of an evil b**tard now and again, then you can always jolly them along.
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Rupert
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Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 24 Jul 14 at 3:36pm |
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Just watching the Brownlee brothers in the Triathlon - they are a team - train together, work together on the bikes, push each other to get better and faster, and I'm sure they have got better results than they would have done if they had gone it alone.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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winging it
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Joined: 22 Mar 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3958 |
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Posted: 24 Jul 14 at 6:39pm |
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Jenna is sailing a Snipe in the fast handicap. That fleet is being led by two lads in a National 12, from some pond very near to here.
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the same, but different...
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iGRF
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Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
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Posted: 24 Jul 14 at 11:06pm |
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7 girls out of the top 10! just goes to show what a bunch of mummies pussy boys we're breeding these days.
That national 12 was that the one they had all that fuss about having a foiling tiller thing at the Qm a few months back? |
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craiggo
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Joined: 01 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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Posted: 24 Jul 14 at 11:08pm |
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The squad system does appear to cause a certain amount of burnout in kids, but then the same happened to me and I never spent a minute in a squad. Luckily for me a broken thumb while trying out for the Uni Ski team made me think about alternative cheaper hobbies and I came back to sailing.
I dont really like the squad model, and would prefer instead to get local kids locally competing against each other at their own club with the very occasional open etc to gauge performance against those from other clubs, otherwise there is too much of a hit on local clubs when half the fleets disappear off to squad events every other weekend. I have the same opinion of circuit events now, finding that I would much rather develop a fleet at my home club and then only dip in or out of one or two choice opens a year, for much the same reasons. As for Jimbo's point regarding reasons for people not coming back into the sport due to cost, well I think that is only the case for people like Jimbo who for what ever dellusional reason will only ever buy new things. Look through his very own facebook dinghy sales page and you will find hundreds of boats for £1000 or less all in good condition and assuming you have others to race against they will offer great club level competition. Sadly, going back to the squad phenomenon, the youf are encouraged through parents with Jimbo's mindset or peer pressure to have the latest boat with the latest gear. When you step out of mummy and daddy's pocket in your late teens or early twenties the schock of not being able to afford a new 29er every couple of years has a big impact. If these kids were brought up with a) more idea of the value of money and b) made to work hard to improve rather than spend to improve then they would be better sailors for it and I suspect would probably stay in the sport through the difficult financial years. I've only ever owned one brand new car, and have never owned a brand new boat, and I'm happy with that, I dont think its held me back in any way. Perhaps when my disposable income increases towards my mid to late 40s I'll consider a new boat but now is not the time. |
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Bootscooter
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Joined: 15 May 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1094 |
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Posted: 24 Jul 14 at 11:46pm |
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What often gets forgotten in these conversations is that what the RYA is doing for Youf sailors doesn't start with Squads.
It starts with the Champion Club scheme, making funds available for Clubs to get access to REALLY good coaches to either teach directly, or train members coach effectively (skills that don't have to be used solely in training just the kids). Ten years ago at Oxford there was virtually ZERO regular club racing participation by people under 20. Now, even ignoring the dozen or so Juniors that have progressed to Squads various, we can generally count on having at least 6 (and often more) under 20's racing throughout the year. This is the big victory of the scheme - getting youngsters sailing to a very good standard so that at worst they can go off to University and meet people with something in common, or even doing that "dropping out then taking it up again in their 20's" thing, that I don't think is all that bad. There is also the significant number that continue in the sport, learn to coach and instruct and go on the be Club Youth Coordinators etc. I'm sure there are improvements that could be made to the system, but I reckon it's pretty good as it is. As for the NSSA - it achieves the goals it sets very, very well. My son, who's raced at all sorts of high profile events still LOVES the NSSA Champs because it's not got any (self-imposed) pressure and is just so much FUN. Long may it continue, and all credit to the dedicated band that work so hard for it 
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Brass
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Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 12:02am |
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Yes, we have youth development squads at state level, and the Australian Sailing Team and some other feeder programs at national level. We also have State Class Associations for most classes, which may conduct ongoing squad training or one-off clinics for the class (usually on a non-selective basis). State Squads don't work quite like UK Regional Squads because Australian States are from four to ten times the size of the whole UK, except for Victoria, which is about the same size, and sailing population in states is irregularly distributed into cities and areas hundreds of miles apart. State Squads thus don't deliver readily geographically accessible development, for example, in NSW, if you're outside Sydney-Newcastle-Wollongong, then you're going to find it very dififficult to get to squad events. Also, we don't usually run 'squad regattas'. Squad members participate in class events at state and sometimes sub-state regional level, and in annual state and national youth regattas. But the bottom line is yes we use talent-spotting, and competitive selection to group young sailors to receive good coaching and logistic support in a dedicated, competitive environment.
Edited by Brass - 25 Jul 14 at 12:05am |
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Brass
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Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 12:22am |
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No, you don't need to do that. What you need to do is provide kids with potential with:
The resources to do this are scarce, so it makes sense to select and concentrate kids with potential into groups to be given those things.
Kids (and adults) drop out of competitive sport for all sorts of reasons, not least of which is that some of them didn't really want to be there in the first place. I understand Graham's story about the girl who stopped windsurfing altogether after just one Squad session, but that sounds like an isolated incident of bad coaching, rather than an innate fault of the squad system. Surely nobody is saying that the squad system is systematically delivering bad coaching that is driving kids out of the sport?
This is all very well for lager clubs with viable fleets of boats suitable for junior development, but spare a thought for kids at a small club, with maybe total of six 420s, two with rank beginners, and maybe only one or two seriously competitive. Sailing in a fleet like that will do nothing to develop talent. And it's no answer to say that they should be sailing in the Merlins/Lightenings/whatever that is sailied at the club. At Squad level, kids should be starting to focus on class-specific techniques, relevant to their pathway, and they need serious sized fleets to do this.
So kids with potential should be denied effective coaching and development to keep clubs more viable?
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kneewrecker
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Joined: 09 Apr 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1586 |
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Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 10:02am |
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It's not delusional, it's affordability... the cost is not what is paid up front, it's the depreciation and running costs. TCO in IT circles.... Some boats are worse than others admittedly. And there are some absolutely bargains...when I was sailing a Laser I made money out of it on face value, same with my 600 and my 200. That's buying second hand and buying at the right price. I'm sure the sub-£1000 boats on that FB page would represent good value club racing, I doubt you'd lose much on them. Frankly if you get two years out of it and then give it away, that's cheap sailing. I'm not sure any of them suddenly improve the amount of free time to use them. In fact, they could be worse... I don't think I've had any sailing binned of for gear failure for quite some time now. I put that down to buying new or nearly new boats. These days I don't need to consider the upfront cost as much as I once did, hence if I want a new dinghy, I'll have one. It's far from delusional to accept the depreciation that comes with buying new consumer goods... be that TVs, cars, surf boards or sailing dinghies. I'd say it's far MORE delusional to think you can use something for 3 years and still sell it for what you paid for it- which is the case with the weird ol' world of sh*tbox sailing dinghies. Some folks may look at the second hand value of popular dinghies and cite that as its achilles heel of the entire industry.... new cars sell because old cars depreciate. I know floating that theory on this forum won't be popular though. My main boat for the past 6 years was second hand when I bought it. It's cost me €500 a year in depreciation- nothing really- what's that, one monthly payment on a dicky car, a quarter of a lawn fee at a golf club, a third of a good mountain bike, a lap dance with extras??? The biggest cost isn't the upfront value, it's the marina fees, and sadly with the arrival of fixed school holidays and no more cheeky long weekends, it's time to part company, simply as we're not getting the value out of it anymore. For now at least...
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