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iiitick View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 9:58am
'End results may not matter' Rupert but congratulations on your win!
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 9:21am
Explaining handicap racing to a non sailor is an exercise in futility anyway, so I don't think it really matters whether the system is working or not.

I've been sailing a long, long time, and if I go down to the club and they are mid race, even I can't figure out who the hell is winning - often it is simply boats spread over the lake - so a non sailor would just (depending on viewpoint) see a mess or a pretty picture opportunity.

That dinghy sailing appears, actually, to be still a popular sport (and given the costs and inaccessability, I'd say surprisingly popular) says a lot about how nice it is to be floating on the water being blown around by the wind. Us racing types tend to forget that. It was brought home to me at the Minisail Nats I just ran, where many of the fleet were simply happy to be out and sailing in the company of other boats the same as theirs. End results didn't matter.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 8:24am
Agree totally with the above, the sport suffers exactly the same way a very expensive Agency once declared windsurfings problems, Inaccessible, Elitist, Expensive and too difficult to bother with anyway.

The latter shouldn't be the case and I'm pleased to see new boats these days addressing that, but it's still a way to go. Heavy poly boring resort boats are not the answer, they are just too heavy for anyone to lift about.

So unless these points are addressed and more people do the sport, nobody will want to watch it on Telly anyway, so nobody to advertise to and at our level do we even care?

Well nobody cared in the windsurfing community so what happened? Numbers fell, manufacturing quantities dropped, prices rocketed and an even more viscous circle of inaccessibly resulted.

So we should care, we should all do our bit to encourage new comers, there should also be more done centrally to 'market' the sport. I know it's my pet beef, but that damned handicap system needs sorting out so it has more grounding in logic rather than anarchy, it doesn't serve our cause when trying to encourage newcomers into the racing environment.

Easy boats like the Icon & Alto should be advantaged, not penalised in petty mindedness, Double handers are the best route to attract newcomers, the moment my Trev experienced his first three sail reach on the plane he was hooked forever. Hook a grown up and you have him and his disposable income for life, press gang a kid and you have him until he gets a driving license and spots an alternative use for his dangly bit. He may return later, but it's not a definite in some instances they (kids) get inoculated against ever sailing again if they experience the full horrors the RYA are capable of chucking at them.

It's a beautiful multi faceted fantastic sport, with more folk doing more to discourage participation than I can throw a stick at, I'm surprised it's still with us.

Edited by iGRF - 08 Jul 14 at 10:36am
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 7:30am
Costly and inaccessible... Yep that too! But i'm afraid my experience of chatting about sailing to non-sailing mates is exactly like Russ's... A lot of them are lycra wearing roadies now, I find it quite ironic.
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Null View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 7:19am
That's funny, I have had conversations with a number of my friends about perhaps trying sailing.  They all think it's an incredibly boring sport to watch, they don't understand the rules, or how the 'circuit' works, they don't think it's a physically demanding sport and to quote one of my close friends.  'I just don't get it' this question is usually followed up by how much is your boat worth and then a massive chuckle.  
Most of my friends find moths interesting, but when asked how fast they travel, again I was laughed at.  They don't think that 20-30 mph is fast, they are right!  Now obviously we have heated arguments over this when drinking beer, but this is a reoccurring theme with all of my non sailing friends.  I can't believe they are in the minority of now mid 30 something blokes that feel like that. 
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 2:35am
Originally posted by kneewrecker

Originally posted by Chris 249

Aren't the vast majority of televised sports ones that the average person can relate to? Most people have ridden a bike or kicked a ball so they can relate to footie or the Tour. In contrast, even the typical sailor has not sailed a foiler.

I'm also not sure that foilers are all that spectacular to non-sailors; there's no flying spray and the tiny hulls and clear sails are not all that distinctive against a broken background. 

It's interesting to see the minutes of the International class AGM. The fleet numbers overall really aren't increasing much outside the UK; the last AGM said that there were just 122 new "official" boats last year, relatively flat membership growth and pretty small membership numbers in many countries (5 in Austria, 20 in France, 30 in the USA, only 10-15 boats expected or hoped to attend the 6 German regattas or Swiss racing, good growth in Italy, and no class in NZ any more).

The boats are amazing, the PR is fantastic, the sponsorship and hype is enormous, the sailors are great, millions have been lost in promoting the class - and yet the growth is far smaller than in other classes. That seems to say a lot about where growth in sailing can come from - surely it's not to be found in the extreme classes. 

People like the head of Eurosaf call such classes the future of the sport but if that's the case, the sport is dead. Thank god grass roots classes are thriving.

Do you think that one day sailors, might, just might, accept that genpop think sailing is pretty dull and lame?  Sure, you can change their minds if they get to experience sailing first hand, but I doubt youtube and sky rights are going to help much.  


I don't know, doubly, which is a confusing way of saying that I don't know whether the genpop do in fact think that sailing is dull and lame, and I also don't know whether sailing will accept that that (whether or not it's true). Big smile

The two biggest surveys of non-sailors I know of said that they DON'T think that sailing is dull and lame - they think it's hard, costly, and inaccessible. Personally I haven't met people who think that sailing is dull and lame - when I mention to people "want to come out on the yacht" they jump at it, even when we caution that she's a scruffy little old thing.

But yep, I do think that there's way too much emphasis on exciting vids, which IMHO largely cement the unfavourable image of sailing as costly and difficult. The problem (IMHO) is that sailing is now so fixated on the idea that extreme high-performance sailing is the way forward that it can't even see the simple fact that it's not really growing. The "watch it and they will come" concept simply doesn't work when the sport is too hard to get into.

The SUP v windsurfing contest seems to be a classic case of a simple sport growing while an extreme one dwindles. Even people like the head of the biggest windsurfing company is now saying that the extreme route was the wrong one to take.






Edited by Chris 249 - 08 Jul 14 at 2:37am
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 14 at 6:21pm
With the exception of football - it should neither be done nor watched...
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 14 at 6:09pm
Do you think that one day sailors, might, just might, accept that genpop think sailing is pretty dull and lame?  Sure, you can change their minds if they get to experience sailing first hand, but I doubt youtube and sky rights are going to help much.  

All of which surely underlines the fact that sports are intended to be something you do - not something you watch!
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 14 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Aren't the vast majority of televised sports ones that the average person can relate to? Most people have ridden a bike or kicked a ball so they can relate to footie or the Tour. In contrast, even the typical sailor has not sailed a foiler.

I'm also not sure that foilers are all that spectacular to non-sailors; there's no flying spray and the tiny hulls and clear sails are not all that distinctive against a broken background. 

It's interesting to see the minutes of the International class AGM. The fleet numbers overall really aren't increasing much outside the UK; the last AGM said that there were just 122 new "official" boats last year, relatively flat membership growth and pretty small membership numbers in many countries (5 in Austria, 20 in France, 30 in the USA, only 10-15 boats expected or hoped to attend the 6 German regattas or Swiss racing, good growth in Italy, and no class in NZ any more).

The boats are amazing, the PR is fantastic, the sponsorship and hype is enormous, the sailors are great, millions have been lost in promoting the class - and yet the growth is far smaller than in other classes. That seems to say a lot about where growth in sailing can come from - surely it's not to be found in the extreme classes. 

People like the head of Eurosaf call such classes the future of the sport but if that's the case, the sport is dead. Thank god grass roots classes are thriving.

Do you think that one day sailors, might, just might, accept that genpop think sailing is pretty dull and lame?  Sure, you can change their minds if they get to experience sailing first hand, but I doubt youtube and sky rights are going to help much.  
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 14 at 3:04pm
I've always been rubbish at sailing winged Moths, and haven't sailed a flying one, so probably aren't the best person to comment on that, but I think failing to master a £500 30 year old Magnum 5 is a rather cheaper hobby than failing to master a £7000 (I assume that a decent 2nd hand boat coats about that?) modern Mot, with rather higher running costs.

The vintage of Moths I rather like didn't have wings, though, and while they fall over more easily than a Solo, say, are pretty easy to sail compared to either of the above.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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