T.V.
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11542
Printed Date: 12 Jul 25 at 3:27pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: T.V.
Posted By: iiitick
Subject: T.V.
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 1:06pm
With all these French blokes riding round Yorkshire on bikes and all this lawn tennis lark, not to mention football and cricket (a game of chance if ever I saw one) you would have thought that all these foiling Moths whizzing about in Weymouth may have made a spectacular item for TV?
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Replies:
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 5:31pm
I'm sure it will make the local news, the Figaros made the news 3 or 4 times in Plymouth.
------------- Needs to sail more...
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Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 7:36pm
It will only make South Today if Sir Ben goes to watch.
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Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by iiitick
......you would have thought that all these foiling Moths whizzing about in Weymouth may have made a spectacular item for TV? |
Assuming your talking about the forthcoming International Moth Worlds
don't send the cameras to Weymouth, the event is at Hayling.
http://www.mothworlds.org/hayling/" rel="nofollow - http://www.mothworlds.org/hayling/
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Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 8:42pm
It's all South to us Northern folk.....
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 06 Jul 14 at 1:36pm
Aren't the vast majority of televised sports ones that the average person can relate to? Most people have ridden a bike or kicked a ball so they can relate to footie or the Tour. In contrast, even the typical sailor has not sailed a foiler.
I'm also not sure that foilers are all that spectacular to non-sailors; there's no flying spray and the tiny hulls and clear sails are not all that distinctive against a broken background.
It's interesting to see the minutes of the International class AGM. The fleet numbers overall really aren't increasing much outside the UK; the last AGM said that there were just 122 new "official" boats last year, relatively flat membership growth and pretty small membership numbers in many countries (5 in Austria, 20 in France, 30 in the USA, only 10-15 boats expected or hoped to attend the 6 German regattas or Swiss racing, good growth in Italy, and no class in NZ any more).
The boats are amazing, the PR is fantastic, the sponsorship and hype is enormous, the sailors are great, millions have been lost in promoting the class - and yet the growth is far smaller than in other classes. That seems to say a lot about where growth in sailing can come from - surely it's not to be found in the extreme classes.
People like the head of Eurosaf call such classes the future of the sport but if that's the case, the sport is dead. Thank god grass roots classes are thriving.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Jul 14 at 8:24pm
The Moth appears to be the boat where pro sailors go to play these days. You won't find any on a small puddle in the cotswolds, as they would be tricky to sail in weed (amongst many other reasons). The Minisail was hard enough to keep the foils clear.
However, low rider moths are coming out of the woodwork and being sailed by normal sailing folk.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Jul 14 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by Rupert
However, low rider moths are coming out of the woodwork and being sailed by normal sailing folk. |
Which is amusing when you think that the lowriders are basically harder to sail...
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Jul 14 at 3:04pm
I've always been rubbish at sailing winged Moths, and haven't sailed a flying one, so probably aren't the best person to comment on that, but I think failing to master a £500 30 year old Magnum 5 is a rather cheaper hobby than failing to master a £7000 (I assume that a decent 2nd hand boat coats about that?) modern Mot, with rather higher running costs.
The vintage of Moths I rather like didn't have wings, though, and while they fall over more easily than a Solo, say, are pretty easy to sail compared to either of the above.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 07 Jul 14 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by Chris 249
Aren't the vast majority of televised sports ones that the average person can relate to? Most people have ridden a bike or kicked a ball so they can relate to footie or the Tour. In contrast, even the typical sailor has not sailed a foiler.
I'm also not sure that foilers are all that spectacular to non-sailors; there's no flying spray and the tiny hulls and clear sails are not all that distinctive against a broken background.
It's interesting to see the minutes of the International class AGM. The fleet numbers overall really aren't increasing much outside the UK; the last AGM said that there were just 122 new "official" boats last year, relatively flat membership growth and pretty small membership numbers in many countries (5 in Austria, 20 in France, 30 in the USA, only 10-15 boats expected or hoped to attend the 6 German regattas or Swiss racing, good growth in Italy, and no class in NZ any more).
The boats are amazing, the PR is fantastic, the sponsorship and hype is enormous, the sailors are great, millions have been lost in promoting the class - and yet the growth is far smaller than in other classes. That seems to say a lot about where growth in sailing can come from - surely it's not to be found in the extreme classes.
People like the head of Eurosaf call such classes the future of the sport but if that's the case, the sport is dead. Thank god grass roots classes are thriving. |
Do you think that one day sailors, might, just might, accept that genpop think sailing is pretty dull and lame? Sure, you can change their minds if they get to experience sailing first hand, but I doubt youtube and sky rights are going to help much.
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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 07 Jul 14 at 6:09pm
Do you think that one day sailors, might, just might, accept that genpop think sailing is pretty dull and lame? Sure, you can change their minds if they get to experience sailing first hand, but I doubt youtube and sky rights are going to help much.
All of which surely underlines the fact that sports are intended to be something you do - not something you watch!
------------- Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Jul 14 at 6:21pm
With the exception of football - it should neither be done nor watched...
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 2:35am
Originally posted by kneewrecker
Originally posted by Chris 249
Aren't the vast majority of televised sports ones that the average person can relate to? Most people have ridden a bike or kicked a ball so they can relate to footie or the Tour. In contrast, even the typical sailor has not sailed a foiler.
I'm also not sure that foilers are all that spectacular to non-sailors; there's no flying spray and the tiny hulls and clear sails are not all that distinctive against a broken background.
It's interesting to see the minutes of the International class AGM. The fleet numbers overall really aren't increasing much outside the UK; the last AGM said that there were just 122 new "official" boats last year, relatively flat membership growth and pretty small membership numbers in many countries (5 in Austria, 20 in France, 30 in the USA, only 10-15 boats expected or hoped to attend the 6 German regattas or Swiss racing, good growth in Italy, and no class in NZ any more).
The boats are amazing, the PR is fantastic, the sponsorship and hype is enormous, the sailors are great, millions have been lost in promoting the class - and yet the growth is far smaller than in other classes. That seems to say a lot about where growth in sailing can come from - surely it's not to be found in the extreme classes.
People like the head of Eurosaf call such classes the future of the sport but if that's the case, the sport is dead. Thank god grass roots classes are thriving. |
Do you think that one day sailors, might, just might, accept that genpop think sailing is pretty dull and lame? Sure, you can change their minds if they get to experience sailing first hand, but I doubt youtube and sky rights are going to help much. |
I don't know, doubly, which is a confusing way of saying that I don't know whether the genpop do in fact think that sailing is dull and lame, and I also don't know whether sailing will accept that that (whether or not it's true). 
The two biggest surveys of non-sailors I know of said that they DON'T think that sailing is dull and lame - they think it's hard, costly, and inaccessible. Personally I haven't met people who think that sailing is dull and lame - when I mention to people "want to come out on the yacht" they jump at it, even when we caution that she's a scruffy little old thing.
But yep, I do think that there's way too much emphasis on exciting vids, which IMHO largely cement the unfavourable image of sailing as costly and difficult. The problem (IMHO) is that sailing is now so fixated on the idea that extreme high-performance sailing is the way forward that it can't even see the simple fact that it's not really growing. The "watch it and they will come" concept simply doesn't work when the sport is too hard to get into.
The SUP v windsurfing contest seems to be a classic case of a simple sport growing while an extreme one dwindles. Even people like the head of the biggest windsurfing company is now saying that the extreme route was the wrong one to take.
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Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 7:19am
That's funny, I have had conversations with a number of my friends about perhaps trying sailing. They all think it's an incredibly boring sport to watch, they don't understand the rules, or how the 'circuit' works, they don't think it's a physically demanding sport and to quote one of my close friends. 'I just don't get it' this question is usually followed up by how much is your boat worth and then a massive chuckle. Most of my friends find moths interesting, but when asked how fast they travel, again I was laughed at. They don't think that 20-30 mph is fast, they are right! Now obviously we have heated arguments over this when drinking beer, but this is a reoccurring theme with all of my non sailing friends. I can't believe they are in the minority of now mid 30 something blokes that feel like that.
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 7:30am
Costly and inaccessible... Yep that too! But i'm afraid my experience of chatting about sailing to non-sailing mates is exactly like Russ's... A lot of them are lycra wearing roadies now, I find it quite ironic.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 8:24am
Agree totally with the above, the sport suffers exactly the same way a very expensive Agency once declared windsurfings problems, Inaccessible, Elitist, Expensive and too difficult to bother with anyway.
The latter shouldn't be the case and I'm pleased to see new boats these days addressing that, but it's still a way to go. Heavy poly boring resort boats are not the answer, they are just too heavy for anyone to lift about.
So unless these points are addressed and more people do the sport, nobody will want to watch it on Telly anyway, so nobody to advertise to and at our level do we even care?
Well nobody cared in the windsurfing community so what happened? Numbers fell, manufacturing quantities dropped, prices rocketed and an even more viscous circle of inaccessibly resulted.
So we should care, we should all do our bit to encourage new comers, there should also be more done centrally to 'market' the sport. I know it's my pet beef, but that damned handicap system needs sorting out so it has more grounding in logic rather than anarchy, it doesn't serve our cause when trying to encourage newcomers into the racing environment.
Easy boats like the Icon & Alto should be advantaged, not penalised in petty mindedness, Double handers are the best route to attract newcomers, the moment my Trev experienced his first three sail reach on the plane he was hooked forever. Hook a grown up and you have him and his disposable income for life, press gang a kid and you have him until he gets a driving license and spots an alternative use for his dangly bit. He may return later, but it's not a definite in some instances they (kids) get inoculated against ever sailing again if they experience the full horrors the RYA are capable of chucking at them.
It's a beautiful multi faceted fantastic sport, with more folk doing more to discourage participation than I can throw a stick at, I'm surprised it's still with us.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 9:21am
Explaining handicap racing to a non sailor is an exercise in futility anyway, so I don't think it really matters whether the system is working or not.
I've been sailing a long, long time, and if I go down to the club and they are mid race, even I can't figure out who the hell is winning - often it is simply boats spread over the lake - so a non sailor would just (depending on viewpoint) see a mess or a pretty picture opportunity.
That dinghy sailing appears, actually, to be still a popular sport (and given the costs and inaccessability, I'd say surprisingly popular) says a lot about how nice it is to be floating on the water being blown around by the wind. Us racing types tend to forget that. It was brought home to me at the Minisail Nats I just ran, where many of the fleet were simply happy to be out and sailing in the company of other boats the same as theirs. End results didn't matter.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 9:58am
'End results may not matter' Rupert but congratulations on your win!
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 10:39am
At my former club most newbies are directed to Lasers so the handicap issue is not really relevant. I'd observe the knock on effect is that the fireball fleet seems to have suffered without a steady stream of fresh blood for the front end, but it seems a price worth paying, as without question, the Laser fleet is really very well run with a good talent spectrum.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 10:50am
Well done there Rupert, so the plan with the saw and the rudder stock and Whelan jnr & his sub aqua mates and the weed worked well then?
So what's this sliding seat thing allowed but rigs have to stay old, all about then? Those boats would really fly if they had a modern windsurf race board rig on them.. (And they were allowed to be light enough of course, but I doubt we could have that though could we?
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 11:01am
The sliding seat is old. I remember my mate telling me he had a Minisail with one way back in days of yore.
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Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 11:23am
Sailing has a very broad spectrum and I think there is pretty much something for everyone depending on which aspect you're looking at. RTW/Long Haul racing appeals to different types than short course rtc or fast and furious team racing. Having done both, there is certainly a difference in intensity (on the Fastnet in 2011 part of the race strategy was dropping the anchor to stop us going backwards, not particularly exciting)
I was surprised by how many non sailing people I know 'loved' watching the last Americas Cup. The situation with the comeback made it interesting, and the incredible speeds right on the edge of perceived disaster had people on the edge of their seats but in fact the racing over the entire series was a bit boring, essentially get to the first mark on the inside and you win (except for 1 maybe 2 races where the USA caught up on the beat).
I know allot of people on here think team racing is way too complicated for the gen pop, however I think if covered right it could be pretty exciting, other sports can be quite complex and are covered well on TV. Big fleet races a mile or two out to sea doesn't really lend itself that well to TV. As I typed that I was also thinking of Formula One, which can be very tedious about 90% of the time.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 11:31am
They have been using the seats since the early 60's! Also allowed wings, and back in the 70's that was quite common. Personally, I like the simplicity of the standard hull on a small lake.
As the RS 600 rig shows, people love experimenting with the boat. I agree that the weight could be brought down to the same as an Aero pretty easily on a new GRP version, but as only one new boat has been built since the 80's, I'm not sure it will ever happen.
I weighed my boat last night (on bathroom scales, so maybe not totally accurate) and it came in at 54kg. The boat is now in the garage, where she is going on a diet. All the 40 years of paint will be coming off, as will the decks with 6 million pins, and once they are off I'll be able to see what weight is wasted in the structure. No plans to go extreme on this - I want the boat to still be nice and strong - but if I can lose 5 or 6 kg (so 10% of hull weight) it would be nice.
If starting a wooden boat from scratch, then I'd think 30-35kgs would be possible.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by JohnJack
Sailing has a very broad spectrum and I think there is pretty much something for everyone depending on which aspect you're looking at. RTW/Long Haul racing appeals to different types than short course rtc or fast and furious team racing. Having done both, there is certainly a difference in intensity (on the Fastnet in 2011 part of the race strategy was dropping the anchor to stop us going backwards, not particularly exciting)
I was surprised by how many non sailing people I know 'loved' watching the last Americas Cup. The situation with the comeback made it interesting, and the incredible speeds right on the edge of perceived disaster had people on the edge of their seats but in fact the racing over the entire series was a bit boring, essentially get to the first mark on the inside and you win (except for 1 maybe 2 races where the USA caught up on the beat).
I know allot of people on here think team racing is way too complicated for the gen pop, however I think if covered right it could be pretty exciting, other sports can be quite complex and are covered well on TV. Big fleet races a mile or two out to sea doesn't really lend itself that well to TV. As I typed that I was also thinking of Formula One, which can be very tedious about 90% of the time.
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I think you're right about team racing- although 2 boat would be better as essentially 'last boat loses' is easier to follow- even for sailors! There's a theory that team racing doesn't work in fast boats. I've certainly believed that in the past, but I wonder what would happen if we put that to the test.... foiling moths, two boat team racing? Hell, I'd watch it for comedy value, especially if crashes were part and parcel of it.
You are right about complex sports still attracting viewers - the indoor snow domes were rammed this winter (too busy for us 'regulars' ) All thanks to the boardercross, slope style and freestyle skiing.... judging from the commentary they messed up a bit until Aimee Fuller got in there to clear a few technical terms up. It mattered not one jot, there were plenty of kids inspired to learn and take up the sport who wouldn't have known a cab from a fakie... but then that's got a bit of different image to billionaires and 72 foot carbon catamarans.
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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 1:54pm
two boat team racing?
Is that something different from match racing?
There's a theory that team racing doesn't work in fast boats.
The America's cup did make me rethink my views on that one a bit. I was a lot more interesting than I had expected it to be. However, I do think in terms of pure tactical match racing slower boats would have been better. But, there is no doubt that it made good TV, and that I guess it really the real test - at least in terms of this thread.
------------- Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by PeterG
two boat team racing?
Is that something different from match racing?
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more action, more dynamic maybe? It forces the intensity away from being first across the line, to not being last.... I dunno, like you, the AC changed my perspective about fast boats being bad viewing. I wonder if that perception shift can be extended???
(I'm feeling open minded this morning, I'm sure it will change tomorrow)
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 2:57pm
2 boats per team, Peter.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 3:40pm
2 boats per team, Peter
Ah, yes! I thought he meant 2 teams of 1 boat each
------------- Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59
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Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 8:29pm
Problem with fast boats is they are to prone to mistakes. A single error can mean a big, possibly irretrievable loss. Think we saw one or two in the AC which was basically race over for the crew making the mistake. I think speed is a little irrelevant for team racing, as long as the boats a nimble and agile enough to be thrown around. It would be more entertaining watching crews fight each other rather than the boat they are sailing. Guessing that why Fireflies have been popular.But would have something that can carry weight better, even make it weight adjusted, so helm and crews + ballast if needed would have to be at least a certain weight (iGRF would like this).
American collages do team racing in modified 420/470 without kite and trap
Could you simplify rules??
Icon could do worse than promote it self as a team racing boat
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 9:52am
Originally posted by Null
That's funny, I have had conversations with a number of my friends about perhaps trying sailing. They all think it's an incredibly boring sport to watch, they don't understand the rules, or how the 'circuit' works, they don't think it's a physically demanding sport and to quote one of my close friends. 'I just don't get it' this question is usually followed up by how much is your boat worth and then a massive chuckle. Most of my friends find moths interesting, but when asked how fast they travel, again I was laughed at. They don't think that 20-30 mph is fast, they are right! Now obviously we have heated arguments over this when drinking beer, but this is a reoccurring theme with all of my non sailing friends. I can't believe they are in the minority of now mid 30 something blokes that feel like that. |
It seems to vary enormously depending on where you live. I spent most of my life on Sydney Harbour, and both locals and tourists love the idea of getting out on it on a yacht. I'm always surprised how much non-sailors love getting out on the harbour and how little notice they take of the 18 Foot Skiffs and foiler Moths. Picnic sailing is what initally attracts most people, IMHO, and when dinghy sailing promoted that it did well.
I think you're right about sailing speeds - compared to land sports or powered sports just about everything is slow. Even Sailrocket is slower than the world women's (recumbent) bicycle record, and as racing cyclists you and I could spend a lot of time quicker than an AC72 on downhills. Actually I'll leave that to you, I'm a wimp downhill and we have too many 'roos to hit on our descents!
It's complex, isn't it! What narks me is the dorks who think that promoting sailing is as simple as showing vids of fast boats.
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 9:57am
Originally posted by kneewrecker
Costly and inaccessible... Yep that too! But i'm afraid my experience of chatting about sailing to non-sailing mates is exactly like Russ's... A lot of them are lycra wearing roadies now, I find it quite ironic. |
Is it irony? Maybe the key is that cycling is a lot more accessible than sailing - any one of us here could chuck a leg over the leading bikes in the Tour (or buy a bike just like it) and go for a ride around our home town. We can't do that with a kite AC72, foiling Moth or Volvo 65.
I'm much more of a sailor than a cyclist, but I can relate to the top cycling event more closely than I can relate to the AC these days. That seems to be ironic.
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 9:59am
Originally posted by iGRF
Agree totally with the above, the sport suffers exactly the same way a very expensive Agency once declared windsurfings problems, Inaccessible, Elitist, Expensive and too difficult to bother with anyway.
The latter shouldn't be the case and I'm pleased to see new boats these days addressing that, but it's still a way to go. Heavy poly boring resort boats are not the answer, they are just too heavy for anyone to lift about.
So unless these points are addressed and more people do the sport, nobody will want to watch it on Telly anyway, so nobody to advertise to and at our level do we even care?
Well nobody cared in the windsurfing community so what happened? Numbers fell, manufacturing quantities dropped, prices rocketed and an even more viscous circle of inaccessibly resulted.
So we should care, we should all do our bit to encourage new comers, there should also be more done centrally to 'market' the sport. I know it's my pet beef, but that damned handicap system needs sorting out so it has more grounding in logic rather than anarchy, it doesn't serve our cause when trying to encourage newcomers into the racing environment.
Easy boats like the Icon & Alto should be advantaged, not penalised in petty mindedness, Double handers are the best route to attract newcomers, the moment my Trev experienced his first three sail reach on the plane he was hooked forever. Hook a grown up and you have him and his disposable income for life, press gang a kid and you have him until he gets a driving license and spots an alternative use for his dangly bit. He may return later, but it's not a definite in some instances they (kids) get inoculated against ever sailing again if they experience the full horrors the RYA are capable of chucking at them.
It's a beautiful multi faceted fantastic sport, with more folk doing more to discourage participation than I can throw a stick at, I'm surprised it's still with us. |
Nice post.
I saw that Starboard's new catalogue is once again promoting WindSUPs as the saviour of windsurfing. Funny that windsurfing, arguably the first part of sailing to go the high speed/pro route, has realised the error of its ways but many of those in the dinghy scene refuse to learn from it.
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 10:19am
Originally posted by Chris 249
Nice post.
I saw that Starboard's new catalogue is once again promoting WindSUPs as the saviour of windsurfing. Funny that windsurfing, arguably the first part of sailing to go the high speed/pro route, has realised the error of its ways but many of those in the dinghy scene refuse to learn from it. |
I wouldn't judge the entirety of windsurfing by the starboard catalogue- for every one of their unofficial fan boys out there telling the world how wonderful and versatile SUPs are, there's a growing breed of wave heads who are more than happy for their sport to marginalised and the equipment to become more or less custom- or at least made to order.
What I find amusing is that as relatively convert to windsurfing, the sport seems utterly dogged by light wind issues- especially in the UK, yet a board I imported (very reluctantly on a bit of a punt) from Sweden has taken 95% of that away. I would still probably find something else to do with my time in sub 8 knots, but that would apply to dinghies too these days.
If ever there was a sport which chucked the baby out with the bathwater it was windsurfing.... and it doesn't seem to learn, even the RRD distributor couldn't sort out a demo on their 'longrider board', instead pushing me to a 90cm wide lump of 'free-formula' sh*te...... as for the WindSUP, it's utterly inefficient for flat water sailing, and I would imagine would soon become a tiresome and irksome sailing experience.... even I would reach for a Laser in preference.
I've contacted a custom board builder in the UK about building a freeridey longboard, no response, not even an acknowledgement. I've even sent a mail to Mistral to see if they had any IMCOs lying around.... no response again, nothing, nada.... there are a few folks who are realising that daggerboard ''fun board' class type boards are still very usable, however the natural market for them is brainwashed and continues to be so as the main brands promote their free-wide offerings as some new early planing holy grail.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 10:28am
It's mired due to the RYA, who refused to countenance your Kona as a board suitable for entry level given they were fixated with their then new daggerboardless 'fast forward' planing only beginner programme. At the time we were selling 50 a year and were deep in recession.
Getting back to sailing on telly, the only thing the bread knife had even a passing interest in was the match racing which she could follow obviously.
Me I went off to make a cuppa waiting for the next Finn or Laser round.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 10:30am
Originally posted by iGRF
It's mired due to the RYA, |
one would have thought that the RYA of all people would have access to average wind speed stats.... which is well below the 15 knots most need to get planing consistently on single fin freeride kit with manageable sails.
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 10:36am
I know that you hate the py system grf but for most newcomers that I've met they aren't interested in racing or therefore the py system. They want to get afloat and have a bit of a potter about.
It's the racing types who ruin it for them, suggesting that they get involved and give it a try. I've seen plenty of people give up the sport because of this. Why not leave them alone to enjoy the sailing.
Sailing is one of the few sports that are polar, there's fun sailing and there's competitive sailing. Most sports always get competitive, even if it's a friendly. Why not accept that and just be there when someone wants to try racing rather than pushing them. The 60's boom was about getting afloat wasn't it? Not racing.
There is also always going to be an element of the fad. Used to be sailing, then it was windsurfing, golf, cycling, now sup's to try to get their money. It'll become fashionable for a while until the ring leaders move onto to the next big thing, and then the sheep will follow.
Everywhere around me seems to have canoes on car roofs. Net they never leave them in most cases either. It's all about being seen to be doing the right sport at the right time. It ain't sailings time at the moment.
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 10:43am
But racing sailors need a club infrastructure don't they- organised sailing. Day sailors don't. Hence the drive for fresh meat always comes from racing sailors.
It seems to me like the racing sailors need to accept things are shrinking, and consolidate the number of clubs to get back to some semblance of critical mass. It's one of the reason why I rarely feel much sympathy for clubs which shutdown.... in truth, for racing sailing in the local area, it's probably quite a good thing.
Less would definitely be more.
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 10:54am
What has been the most popular sailing programme on TV in recent years? America's Cup? Probably not, I bet it was 3 men in a boat. Admittedly Mr Rhys-Jones and Co contributed to the ratings, but it's basically a show about messing about in boats. And yes they did race in it I know, but dara and the other one were clueless about it
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 11:12am
Let me just clarify, I don't 'hate' the PY system it was something I liked, OK it had it's issues but then it was never going to be perfect, can never be perfect. What I hate is the recent manipulation that is going on for whatever reason, conspiracy to swell regatta ranks or supply computer software, rival companies trying to eliminate competitors, whatever. Something that has been slowly changing and evolving suddenly moving all over the place in all directions for no reason that is apparent to the man in the street. This, as a result of commercial activity and profit which was never something the RYA involved itself in supporting.
What is happening at the moment is wrong, very wrong.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 11:13am
If we're referencing pop culture then Pierce Brosnan trashed a very expensive racing catamaran in The Thomas Crown Affair.... not that anyone would have noticed he did it by grinding on a winch that wasn't even loaded with a rope, most blokes watching would have been more impressed by Rene Russo's norks.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 11:19am
Oh and back to telly, telly is only likely to regularly broadcast the sailing sport element rather than sailing the past time.
It hardly seems two years ago that I was rushing home to catch every race and tedious presenters aside I thought 'they' didn't do a bad job of the Olympics, were there ever any viewing figures recorded I wonder?
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 11:32am
Originally posted by iGRF
Oh and back to telly, telly is only likely to regularly broadcast the sailing sport element rather than sailing the past time.
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Not so, Howard's Way was incredibly popular... back when sailing was considered something aspirational and interesting.
If you wants boats and adventure, then you only have to look at the Pirates of the Caribbean or the Jake and the Never Land Pirates franchises. On domestic TV the Hornblower series was popular and remains so on iTunes download.
Sailing can capture the imagination of the young and the old when the spirit of adventure is upon them. Box courses with a biblical rule book and some odd scoring system on some former gravel pit on a plastic dinghy, erm, less so....
I said it before, but I do wonder if, despite being utterly counter intuitive, improving the statistical accuracy of the PY system has actually undermined the human experience somewhat? That's what happens when you let statisticians take over the asylum....
Group exercise programmes are growing, running groups are seemingly on the increase around where I live and I think it's recorded officially that cycling groups are generally over-subscribed - and by a cross section of society, no just MAMILs.
The 'old' PY race... the one where no really knew, nor cared who 'won' as not even the times were being taken, never mind the results broadcast across the internet for all and sundry to see, certainly had more people happily sailing around with their mates than the results posted today on the internet. The competitive element coming from the interactions with those around you, not the re-sort of a spreadsheet and html file. It's all gone rather dry and stale...
Maybe the answer to PY and increasing 'organised sailing participation' would be to run the racing scratch, just like a sunday cycle club... there's always class racing and circuit sailing for those with ultra-competitive aspirations. When I look at the results at my old club, it seems pretty pointless to keep flogging a dead horse. My last 'competitive sail' was on Sunday, against a mutual friend of Graeme and mine... he whooped me, but it didn't stop me trying and learning from his 30+ years experience.
Oddly enough it was 'one design racing', not that we knew it or it mattered, neither was there a course or a rule book or a handicap, personal or otherwise.... Witchcraft Chakras, with 6.2 and 6.4 sails. Great sailing and a bit of a natural competitive edge to it too.
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Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 11:36am
This maybe a rose tinted view, probably adopted from the stories of the rose tinted spectacled oldies at my club, as it all happened before my time. In the boom years (60's,70's,80's) there seemed to be less diluted classes and most of the boats that weren't that quick by today's comparison. There also seemed to be allot of double handed boats. You only have to look at the sailnumbers of the 'classic' dinghies like the GP14 (14,000), Enterprise (25,000), Mirror (71,000) all two handed, compared to the single handers (Laser excluded). Compared to the single handers of the time Solo (5,000 though currently taking off) Streaker (3,000?)
My point is, there seems to have been a big shift (at my club if not else where) to single handers that possibly wasn't there before.
Imagine an adult turning up at your club,never sailed wants to get into the sport saw the boats out on your lake/river/bay If most of the club are in single handers he is going to be going away with a leaflet, which advertises the RYA Dinghy 1 & Dinghy 2 courses that he can do in two months time if they are not booked up. If his interest stays for two months and he does those courses, he either rents a club single hander or buys a boat (solo, laser etc etc depending what is sailed at the local club) spends more time fighting with the boat at the back of the fleet rather than the boat on boat action he was looking for, loses interest moves on.
In the boom period, adult turns up at club. Jumps straight into an Enterprise as a crew (where you don't really need to do that much) with an experienced helm, is up with the fleet amongst other boats at the windward mark and actually properly learns to sail/race (wind awareness, looking for gusts, getting a feel for how the boat reacts, rules, situational awareness etc etc). After a bit of time, either buys a boat and passes the experience on or moves to another class with a Spinny, and so on, and so on.
I was at West Kirby Marine Lake a few weeks ago on a Friday night (the in laws were house hunting and had managed to escape) when they had their Juniors out. There must have been atleast a dozen Cadets (the boat) out with older Junior helms and younger Junior crews. The racing was reasonably close, they were working with spinnakers (symetric so lots of tactics going on)
It was fantastic to see, better than seeing kids out in Oppies/Toppers by them selves looking bored.
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 11:44am
I think that most clubs need to accept that racing is not the new all and end all for them. Concentrate on the fun sailing and push the racing to the back. Make it a leisure club rather than a competition club.
The rya provide a training network (maned by club members in must cases of course) that is soley aimed at getting people to compete later on for the Olympics. They even push for clubs to become "champion clubs", which is of course elitist. Hardly encouraging for beginners when everything is racing this and racing that.
Perhaps it's time for a better organisation for small leisure clubs, that is solely aimed at fun sailing. You may get more people coming along. Once they've got the hang of it and want more then they find the nearest club that runs racing and move onto there. Would that work?
Add for the TV thing I meant popular programmes about sailing, not those that happened to have sailing in them. That's where howards way went wrong in the end. It turned into a soap that happened to have boats in it. That and of course the incredibly wooden acting
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 11:49am
Originally posted by JohnJack
This maybe a rose tinted view, probably adopted from the stories of the rose tinted spectacled oldies at my club, as it all happened before my time. |
There were more classes then, not fewer, but they were more likely to be gathered together. If you look at the map, in places where there are are several clubs in a small area (eg Solent, Thames etc) there would be a tendency for different clubs to have different fleets, so you might get Scorpions at one, Merlins at another, that sort of thing. Yes there were more slower boats, but there were also more faster boats, its much more concentrated in the middle now. Clubs were often oversubscribed, maybe even had waiting lists, so they could be very prescriptive about what classes they allowed, often not even having handicap fleets. Yes, singlehanders were much much rarer. People (ie men) could go sailing every week leaving the kids at home with the wife and not expect to be divorced within 18 months. Very different times.
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 1:57pm
Boating, Sailing, Yachting however the royal chartered yachting association would like it branded, will always be associated with privilege.... it's going to be very difficult to shift that.
Ask yourself why it matters that a convicted criminal http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/04/rolf-harris-sentencing-boat-home_n_5557204.html" rel="nofollow - arrives for sentencing by boat?
It shouldn't matter, but in our society, that tidbit of information seems to resonate something.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 2:23pm
Stop it now.
Get back in your boxes.
Other than swanning about the Caribbean on some tub, sailing without racing purpose can never be described as 'fun' stop being silly now, does anybody here go out just for a sail? No of course not, why would you?
That's what windsurfing or kitesurfing is for.
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Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 4:48pm
Other than just going out for a blast every now and then we only sail when we are racing. And going for a blast is really practice for racing. Anyways the club/lake is deserted when there isn't any racing going on anyway
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Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by Chris 249
Originally posted by Null
That's funny, I have had conversations with a number of my friends about perhaps trying sailing. They all think it's an incredibly boring sport to watch, they don't understand the rules, or how the 'circuit' works, they don't think it's a physically demanding sport and to quote one of my close friends. 'I just don't get it' this question is usually followed up by how much is your boat worth and then a massive chuckle. Most of my friends find moths interesting, but when asked how fast they travel, again I was laughed at. They don't think that 20-30 mph is fast, they are right! Now obviously we have heated arguments over this when drinking beer, but this is a reoccurring theme with all of my non sailing friends. I can't believe they are in the minority of now mid 30 something blokes that feel like that. |
It seems to vary enormously depending on where you live. I spent most of my life on Sydney Harbour, and both locals and tourists love the idea of getting out on it on a yacht. I'm always surprised how much non-sailors love getting out on the harbour and how little notice they take of the 18 Foot Skiffs and foiler Moths. Picnic sailing is what initally attracts most people, IMHO, and when dinghy sailing promoted that it did well.
I think you're right about sailing speeds - compared to land sports or powered sports just about everything is slow. Even Sailrocket is slower than the world women's (recumbent) bicycle record, and as racing cyclists you and I could spend a lot of time quicker than an AC72 on downhills. Actually I'll leave that to you, I'm a wimp downhill and we have too many 'roos to hit on our descents!
It's complex, isn't it! What narks me is the dorks who think that promoting sailing is as simple as showing vids of fast boats.
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Completely agree Chris and i guess it depends on demographic too. 30 something men, would prefer blasting down a hill on a Mtb then freezing their bollox off on a boat here. 18ft skiffs, Moths....whatever, stick it on TV, youtube, wherever. if I showed most of my mates, they would just not get it.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 8:34pm
For those on here old enough to remember, the 'Rio' Duran Duran video is most people's ides of what sailing is all about.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Chris 249
Originally posted by kneewrecker
Costly and inaccessible... Yep that too! But i'm afraid my experience of chatting about sailing to non-sailing mates is exactly like Russ's... A lot of them are lycra wearing roadies now, I find it quite ironic. |
Is it irony? Maybe the key is that cycling is a lot more accessible than sailing - any one of us here could chuck a leg over the leading bikes in the Tour (or buy a bike just like it) and go for a ride around our home town. We can't do that with a kite AC72, foiling Moth or Volvo 65.
I'm much more of a sailor than a cyclist, but I can relate to the top cycling event more closely than I can relate to the AC these days. That seems to be ironic. |
cant believe i am agreeing with you twice Chris...But, absolutely agree. Look at me, I have recently purchased a new bike which is the same spec as used in the TDF, i can and have swung my leg over it. i can race friends on Strava (like handicap racing on a spreadsheet) I have done TT's, sportive everything. I don't have to worry about sailing some stupid plastic learner dinghy and pulling on wet sailing school wetsuits and ill fitting buoyancy aids, i don't have to worry about taking RYA lvls 1-whatever at great cost to me, my cycling club membership is £15 a year, in which i can volunteer to marshal races or sportives if i want not waste 3 weekends a year freezing my box off watching 5 boats drift around a lake, i can roll my bike out in 2 minutes for a blast in the evening...Finally when i ride 100 miles friends are impressed, when i sail at 20 knots know one knows what the f**k that means!
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Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 10 Jul 14 at 11:13am
Originally posted by Null
Originally posted by Chris 249
Originally posted by kneewrecker
Costly and inaccessible... Yep that too! But i'm afraid my experience of chatting about sailing to non-sailing mates is exactly like Russ's... A lot of them are lycra wearing roadies now, I find it quite ironic. |
Is it irony? Maybe the key is that cycling is a lot more accessible than sailing - any one of us here could chuck a leg over the leading bikes in the Tour (or buy a bike just like it) and go for a ride around our home town. We can't do that with a kite AC72, foiling Moth or Volvo 65.
I'm much more of a sailor than a cyclist, but I can relate to the top cycling event more closely than I can relate to the AC these days. That seems to be ironic. |
cant believe i am agreeing with you twice Chris...But, absolutely agree. Look at me, I have recently purchased a new bike which is the same spec as used in the TDF, i can and have swung my leg over it. i can race friends on Strava (like handicap racing on a spreadsheet) I have done TT's, sportive everything. I don't have to worry about sailing some stupid plastic learner dinghy and pulling on wet sailing school wetsuits and ill fitting buoyancy aids, i don't have to worry about taking RYA lvls 1-whatever at great cost to me, my cycling club membership is £15 a year, in which i can volunteer to marshal races or sportives if i want not waste 3 weekends a year freezing my box off watching 5 boats drift around a lake, i can roll my bike out in 2 minutes for a blast in the evening...Finally when i ride 100 miles friends are impressed, when i sail at 20 knots know one knows what the f**k that means! |
Haha Null, I know what you mean! 
------------- Needs to sail more...
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 10 Jul 14 at 11:21am
Originally posted by Null
cant believe i am agreeing with you twice Chris. |
Don't worry, I hear you can get a script for it these days. :-)
PS - 15 squid for membership and no marshalling duties? You lucky lucky b*stards; down here it's $250 and a couple of days marshalling.
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Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 10 Jul 14 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by Chris 249
Originally posted by Null
cant believe i am agreeing with you twice Chris. |
Don't worry, I hear you can get a script for it these days. :-)
PS - 15 squid for membership and no marshalling duties? You lucky lucky b*stards; down here it's $250 and a couple of days marshalling.
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I couldn't believe it, it also gives me free VIP membership to my local cycling superstore. Which in itself is worth £30!!! Giving me 15% off everything i buy. I saved the membership fee with the purchase of my new saddle!
Why would you not join?
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Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 10 Jul 14 at 8:28pm
Sailing on TV?
Ballyhome YC and F18 Worlds gang managed to drag the BBC along to Bangor.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/sailing/28208248" rel="nofollow - www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/sailing/28208248
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Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 8:52am
Originally posted by Null
Originally posted by Chris 249
Originally posted by Null
cant believe i am agreeing with you twice Chris. |
Don't worry, I hear you can get a script for it these days. :-)
PS - 15 squid for membership and no marshalling duties? You lucky lucky b*stards; down here it's $250 and a couple of days marshalling.
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I couldn't believe it, it also gives me free VIP membership to my local cycling superstore. Which in itself is worth £30!!! Giving me 15% off everything i buy. I saved the membership fee with the purchase of my new saddle!
Why would you not join? |
I have often wondered why regional chandlers outside the big three or four don't approach local clubs with a, let us advertise at your club and we will give all your members, for example, a 5% discount... Which I am guessing is pretty much what VIP membership is at you local cycle store.
Maybe this happens elsewhere in the country, just not on the Wirral
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 9:03am
That is exactly what two local chandlers do at WSC. 10%!
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 9:30am
Trident always used to give 10% off for Newcastle Uni SC and Durham Uni SC - they might still do that for all I know.
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