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Latest legal Laser tweaks???? |
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Rupert 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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 Topic: Latest legal Laser tweaks????Posted: 17 Jun 14 at 10:04pm |
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If the boat belongs to you, you can do what you like to it. Simple. None of this is illegal, which suggests fines and jail, it is simply conforming to the norm in order to be able to race in class events.
The choice is simple, but if you want the latter, why do people both tweaking? Sure everyone should want their boat to be as identical to all the others as possible. If you want the speed to involve the boat as well as the helming skill, sail something else, like a Cherub. |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Chris 249
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Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 4:40am |
Why is that? The answers to the basic question have already been given, and they are not problematic. The Aero and D-One can't really be compared to the Laser because neither of them has been under the slightest bit of real competitive pressure yet, whereas the Laser has been sailed by tens of thousands of people and hundreds of potential Olympians. RS and Devoti are great companies but if their classes were put under the same sort of pressure, on the water and off, who knows what would happen? Have the Aero's class rules even been released yet? I sometimes wonder whether the arrival of the 100, Aero, D 1 etc may not actually relieve the pressure on the Laser and other major existing classes. With so many new boats arriving, and rumours of others on the horizon, the chance of any one of them achieving critical mass in any country (apart perhaps from the UK, where sailors now appear to be happy with much less local class racing than in other countries) must surely be reduced. |
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Chris 249
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Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 4:43am |
Yes Mike, it has to be brainwashing, because there's no way that other people could have reasonable but different opinions on such matters, is there...... I have posted that I would quite like to see some mods to the boat, but the opinions of those who want to keep it as it is (or even as it was) seem to be based on reasonable and logical grounds, and not the product of anyone being brainwashed.
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blaze720
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Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 9:17am |
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.....and not the product of anyone being brainwashed.
eeerm .... Yes good conditoning is very plausible such that even otherwise reasonable people accept what they are repeatedly told is 'normal' and develop a rationale for it - the entire point being made by the prosecution me Lord  Come along ... 'Laser' have had decades to address the issues and missed some great evolution opportunities as well ... all thats going to be left in a few years is the unflinching 'convinced' who would march out of the trenches without query into machine gun fire. We are not talking about turbo charging the boat, it is not about speed, it is about addressing the deficiencies that cost Laser a lot of general mid-fleet customers. Henry Ford liked to keep things the same as well ... but even he evolved the model 'T' when needed. Mike L. |
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jeffers
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Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 9:30am |
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The Laser has evolved over the years.
The sail has changed several times. The rigging has changed significantly. The foils have changed. Tillers have changed. What has not changed are the things that make the boat what it is and this is important to the design of the boat (and to most people who actually sail the boat). I think it is great that you can jump in to an old Laser and still be competitive in it as long as you have a decent sail. To make changes to the hull and spars will (effectively) obsolete the 100,000+ boats that are already out there. I know there is a carbon top section that is ready for release (subject to approval) and this will change the class . The spar is (apparently) designed to have the same bend characteristics as the current ali section but we all know that carbon will behave differently to ali (and it wont get a permanent bend).
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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kneewrecker
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Joined: 09 Apr 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1586 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 9:39am |
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well said Mike!
And Chris you have a point, when a Laser is available second hand for a couple of grand, you do have wonder why folks would be willing to spend 5 or so on an *ero, or even more once you start looking at Solos and Supernovas. I do observe one thing though, the local club sailors I know who sail them, and enjoy them, rarely buy a new one. Many say that if they had to buy a new boat, it probably wouldn't be a new Laser.... they fully accept the deficiencies in the technology, a compromise for easy sailing and class racing, but no way they'd be robbed at full RRP. So it seems to me a large part of the marketing pyramid is based around new boat supply into the Olympic and Junior programme, which filters down into the adult club sailor market where the *eros seem to be targeting (along with other well established incumbent classes). A quick walk around WPNSA in Feb last year was enough to see 20 or so new boats being fitted out for youth squad types, despite reported problems of availability of key components like sails in the general market. So what happens if ISAF / IOC pull the plug? My guess is that the pyramid crumbles - albeit slowly as the boats do last well. I guess baby fingers knows the same thing- after all, his sponsorship of sailing through his allied company can't be based on demographics. Those of an age to have newborns and toddlers rarely have the time and capital to pursue dinghy sailing in brand new boats. So it's quite clear to me the sponsorship is politically motivated, to ensure one thing and one thing only, the Laser retains an institutional advantage over every other competitor it has. If you are a fan of open markets and competition in the economy, then this sort of practice might stick in the craw just a bit... and that's without factoring in the considerations around the Bruce Kirby issue.
Edited by kneewrecker - 18 Jun 14 at 10:01am |
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iiitick
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 04 Jun 14 Location: gb Online Status: Offline Posts: 478 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 9:53am |
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I used to own a BMW 735 e32 model. I thought it was one of the nicest looking cars ever built.....until the next model came out when suddenly it looked old fashioned, still nice but old fashioned. Previous to that I had an e23 728 from 1984. I remember saying to a friend that I thought this was the ultimate car and it could not be bettered. How wrong I was.
Cars do not last, they gradually disappear from our roads. Boats last much longer. Laser exist as an entity unto themselves, so familiar, as familiar as your own nose. Wipe them all away and look back in ten years. With new eyes you would wonder how they lasted so long. Good morning.
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alstorer
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Joined: 02 Aug 07 Location: Cambridge Online Status: Offline Posts: 2899 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 10:18am |
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What's the current status with building/supply in this country? Who's building them and supplying them? What other Laser branded boats (eg the rotomolds such as the pico, Bahia) are they still selling?
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-_
Al |
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jeffers
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Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 10:27am |
Laser Performance are supplying them with the sub contracted (wholly owned subsidiary) building the hulls. Pico, Bahia and Vago are being built by whoever was building them before as (I believe) they are unaffected by the current legal dispute. As for how many they are selling who knows. The biggest market for them seems to be sailing centres. Supply appears to be OK, the only thing in short supply are foils I am told by my contact (so don;t break one or you will be facing a long wait to get a replacement).
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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blaze720
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Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 10:43am |
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It is not about 'the next best' thing gismo's .... or changing the hull or even spars for carbon. Now I do not sail them anymore and am unlikely to do so ever again... but ...
The weather helm - the mainsheet round the back of the boat - the poor controls - the poor sailcloth that limits durability - the 'edicts' on how to tie knots or whatever, the 'rule pedants' in areas that make not a jot of real difference, the ... well you name it. It would be up to some Laser rebels not us 'non-belivers' though .... But If I was to 'do it' - do the rudder, no excuses please. I'd also replace the boom with something that had more effect than wet spagetti - it can be alloy if you like at say £ 15.00 per metre anodised if cost is critical. Give them free choice on mainsheet and kicker systems as well ...And for pitys sake sort out the mainsheet - so many newbies were put off the bloody boat way back this 'foible' was only acepted because enough stayed in the boat - they do less of that now of course ... yes we would repeat the mantra "it is YOUR technique" .... "so what" you might say... It is important because in 10 years time there will still be thousands and thousands of Laser hulls out there that could get someone new into sailing ... or keep them there. Car heaters were luxury items once upon a time, so were electic windows, AC etc you name it but decent manners and sweetish handling are not to much to ask surely in a newbie boat ? It is what is expected today in cars and so boats cannot evolve ? And most of these issues are fixed so so easily. New dinghy sailors do not generally buy new boats of any type - they buy old Lasers and similar and maybe spend a few quid on them if they like the experience. A few years on they just maybe put their hands in the pocket and lash out on a real indulgence ... like a new boat. The entry level boat is not a 'good value' new one ... it is that £ 1k or £ 1.5k used boat ... That is why the laser is so important and 'fixing' its odd little characteristics for those latent users may not be for the purists but it might be good for dinghy sailing overall. And then one day grass roots numbers might start to rise ..... there is enough equipment already kicking around to start a revolution - just add new ideas. Mike L. |
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