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PY changes for 2014 |
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Harris3489 
Newbie 
Joined: 01 Mar 14 Location: Wirral Online Status: Offline Posts: 2 |
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 Topic: PY changes for 2014Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 8:49pm |
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"What percentage of clubs always sail sausage triangles? "
hardly any, that's the problem |
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Medway Maniac
Really should get out more 
Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788 |
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Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 8:45pm |
How do you reach that conclusion, given that the data is of all manner of races fed back by clubs? What percentage of clubs always sail sausage triangles? Very few, I'd suggest; ours almost never.
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Harris3489
Newbie
Joined: 01 Mar 14 Location: Wirral Online Status: Offline Posts: 2 |
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Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 8:42pm |
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yes some have benefited and some have lost but it is all pretty irrelevant as asymmetric boats will loose to symmetric boats on a windward-leeward course regardless of which sails its handicap better. the pys system is designed around sausage triangle courses so any deviation from this means the handicap system is irrelevant unless these type of course is used, now obviously no course will be entirely even on port and starboard tacks but some are horrifically skewed particularly on club races where mark positions are fixed and therefore limiting
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GybeFunny
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 27 Oct 09 Online Status: Offline Posts: 403 |
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Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 8:10pm |
Of course they didn't disagree - the customer is always right and they were hoping you would buy something! |
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iGRF
Really should get out more
Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
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Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 7:02pm |
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Spent most of my show lobbying the various manufacturers and they're agents, for my SBHRS system, driven by formulas set by the people who actually build the boat, and fixed. Only changed if there is a change to the physical specification of the boat and not open to tinkering by committee and computers every year.
That would at least minimise their risk, so if they are trying to sell me a craft for 5 to 10 grand at a given handicap, I'm not going to be wandering around the following year with a long face, knowing the class I bought into last year is now dead in the water, not because anything changed on it, just because a group input data from a sailing environment different to mine or even that which the designer and manufacturer may have intended the craft to be used on when gauging the handicap rating. Nothing would stop clubs carrying on with the absurdities of the current system, but at least there would be a common sense guideline written in stone that purchaser of a given craft could point to and insist if necessary it be adopted. Not one of them disagreed that it would make sense. |
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andy101
Posting king 
Joined: 11 Jan 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 176 |
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Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 4:36pm |
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Seems like common sense.
There have been discussions in recent years of a split between water types and I took it from the comments of those involved they weren't confident they had enough data to provide it on an 'official' basis but pointed clubs towards making local adjustments. However, in many clubs this is to much of a can of worms so greater guidance from the Governing Body is required. As the number of on-line returns is increasing each year surely the point will be reached in the very near future when there is enough confidence in the data to provide this?? |
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NeilB-Phantom
Groupie 
Joined: 01 Mar 14 Location: Plymouth-UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 41 |
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Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 11:34am |
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I got back in to dinghy sailing 5 years ago after a long lay off, bought a Phantom as I'm now much to big for most anything else. I've seen a 45 point or nearly 5% drop in PY since I bought the boat. I've improved and changed from GRP and tin mast to epoxy/FRP and carbon so I was just about staying competitive, I used to be able to beat the other single handers occasionally, but not since the drop to 1012 and no hope now. I sail on Plymouth sound so whilst not open sea a rougher than a lake.
Seems to me the RYA need to do to things if individual classes are not to be penalised by statistical anomalies: 1.) Limit the %age change per year / and over a number of years when there is no development in the class rules. 2.) Distinguish between in land and coastal clubs, should be easy to do automatically, 1 field in the returns form. Then its easy to generate 3 handicaps the "official" one based on all data and a coastal and an open water one based on subsets. We'd at least have a number to take to sailing ctte race officers then as a basis for a change. I would think it be easy enough to do this retrospectively over the past 5 years data too. The RYA need to do something, only got to look at attendance numbers for opens and Nationals to see that the change in handicap for the racing most of us are limited to is driving people out of the class may be even away from sailing. Surely not what the RYA is supposed to be doing.
Edited by NeilB-Phantom - 01 Mar 14 at 11:48am |
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Phantom 1384
Dazcat D995 |
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yellowwelly
Really should get out more
Joined: 24 May 13 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2003 |
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Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 9:57am |
 that could 2224 and your final sentence would still stand.Here's Jimbo's three ways to deal with these 'issues': 1) accept statistics, park the emotion with the trolley dolly and learn the finer skills of handicap racing... I think in Clive's book is says sail cleanly and avoid B-O-B action. 2) forget the statistics, really, just don't look and enjoy the sailing as the 'competitive cruise' that it is 3) find an alternative way to derive the competitive value, my idea is on here entitled Ozone Sailing In the absence of 3 (or something similar/better), I will go with 2 for next boat, but I'm not going to kid anyone that the quality of the racing is the same as in a class race, nor racing scratch as I used to in Lasers against 420s. |
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jeffers
Really should get out more
Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 9:16am |
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Can of worms opened, I am almost sad I am not going to Ali Pali to enjoy a beer or 2 with various forumites this weekend....
FWIW We have a Phantom sailor who regularly sails the boat down below 980 and other who regularly get to the 1000 mark so inland on restricted water that PY is probably about right. Others are plainly wrong for our water so (hopefully) our SC will tweak where required.
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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Oli
Really should get out more
Joined: 23 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1020 |
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Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 7:38am |
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Don't see how it's unfair? All returns from all clubs and all classes are put through the same process, the end result is a product of what has been returned to the RYA and the handicap is what each class has achieved themselves. Take it as a compliment that your handicap has dropped so much, your class must be full of great sailors and very few numpties.
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