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PY changes for 2014

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    Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 8:49am
Hi Steve

You still annoyed about Weymouth:-)

Yes but it could be better with more boats, look at Phantom turn out several years ago to what is was this year :-(




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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 8:52am
Originally posted by iGRF

The proof of that is exactly the Alto, it's been around now since 2007, it's been raced all over the place at all sorts of venues, high and low profile, yet only now 7 years later has it shown up on the 'experimental' list, I don't even care why, but immediately it's wrong, they've positioned it within a point or two of a 505 a very similar boat with square yards more canvas and at least 5% more speed on all points of sailing.

Why should an Alto be slower than a 505?  It's just as long, significantly lighter and has a modern, carbon rig, whereas the 505 is nowadays saddled with an over-size kite that's unusable on club courses except on a run. Like I already said, the Altos at WSC have been winning series on 915 against experienced 800, V3k and Vortex sailors, the PYS is even suggesting 903.

I'd say the last thing needed is "someone with the knowledge and Balls" such as yourself.  Just learn to sail your Alto properly.  Come to WSC for a lesson, maybe.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 8:52am
here is the list with the bsc suggested numbers added for comparison, adjusted classes highlighted and difference between suggested and national shown.

we have a system of adjusting numbers and have seen an increase in boats racing because of it, yes we get the odd moan but the majority prefer it run this way.



Edited by Oli - 28 Feb 14 at 8:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve411 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 8:53am
Just realised who you are Slooow! Annoyed about Weymouth? - it was a light winds, and we all know what a bandit the Phantom is in those conditions.  Wink

The thing about the Phantom turnout is that many of the top guys are leaving the class to sail D-1s, Finns etc.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slooow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 9:04am
Hi Steve

Yes I did hear that rumour too :-)

Catch up soon

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 9:07am
Originally posted by mongrel

How about separating coastal clubs data from lake/reservoir data and seeing if a separate sea and inland py would be much different?
There's no ambiguity about whether you're on a lake or the sea like there would be with a wind strength py.


Plenty of ambiguity about sea venues - compare the Solent, Poole Harbour, Salcombe, Shoreham, Hayling. All salty but all VERY different in terms of waves, tidal effect, etc.

Inland venues can also be very different - the only common factors are no salt and no waves big enough to surf of, but Grafham or Rutland are worlds away from little puddles like Frensham.

PYS is about averages - and the nut on the tiller has as big an impact on results as the PY number.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 9:18am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac


Why should an Alto be slower than a 505?


1) The 505 has a full jib, the Alto has a small self tacking jib, anyone who knows anything about sailing upwind would know the difference, long reaching banjo players who sail fetches up and down a river at right angles to the wind wouldn't have the first idea.
2)Off wind soaking low the monster kite in most conditions out performs sailing angles, with or without the wing wang. On two sail reaches the five oh jib wins again. Round the cans? Use the smaller kite, it's an option not available to the Alto.
3)Taking heavy water, the 505 has higher freeboard and deflects big waves rather than taking them over the lee side filling the boat.
4)More refined rig controls, rams, adjustable stays, 30 years more refinement in sail designs, ask the designer even he'll admit the Alto was designed to be slower not faster than a 505...

As I said if the committee had anyone on it that knew facts rather than conjecture, you'd have more realistic results.

Edited by iGRF - 28 Feb 14 at 9:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 9:31am
So... you're saying that the PYAG should put more weight on personal opinions about how fast different boats ought to be, and less weight on what the actual data coming back from the clubs says?

In the USA their major cruiser handicapping rule, PHRF, has a much greater amount of input from local handicapping committees on how fast they think the boats should be than we have here. Its not always a recipe for sailors content about their handicaps.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 9:33am
You can't really bash the RYA for taking all the info they can get from the clubs and coming up with an overall number - it would be impossible to come up with an individual venue number unless the clubs decided individual weightings taking into account individual skill levels and that is a complete can of worms. After all the handicap officer always seems to have a good one...... LOL

That may annoy people who sail phantoms on the sea, but the vast majority of Phantoms are inland. Phantoms, great boat though they are, are optimised for inland and are overpowered for the sea, especially in recent big breeze years, but that is what has made them such a weapon inland. Not saying you can't have good fun in one, but the power to leverage ratio is OTT.

If you sail on the sea, a Blaze or Supernova are much better suited than a phantom. The only Phantom left at our club was bought specifically for week night light wind sailing and the owner has another boat for when the breeze is up.


Edited by SimonW99 - 28 Feb 14 at 9:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 9:40am
Originally posted by JimC

So... you're saying that the PYAG should put more weight on personal opinions about how fast different boats ought to be, and less weight on what the actual data coming back from the clubs says?



Yes, absolutely yes, if as you well know the data is skewed.

Take that little conversation above as an example.

Two near identical hulls, one detuned by the designer to be easier to use, the other tried and tested with more sail area, but because the data is being submitted presumably by a venue that constrains the faster features of the one over the other, your programme receives inaccurate data.

The Same with the Icon

Definitely the case with the Laser & Phantom and sounds like something weird going on with Teltales Wanderer.

It's clearly the data that is wrong, or the computer programme, but surely some basis in actual fact when one boat is clearly faster than another, not only in fact but design, should be taken into consideration by human input and the data anomaly corrected. Hence my calls for the factual boat data be part of the correlation.

It is a Fact that the 505 is a faster boat by at least 5% than an Alto, it is also a fact that the Merlin Rocket is similarly faster than an Icon when all its facets come into play, relying on data derived from venues when all facets of any given craft do not come into play is wrong, it is that simple.

Edited by iGRF - 28 Feb 14 at 9:44am
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