Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Windward boat/proper course |
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Steve411 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 08 Location: Cheddar, Somerset, England Online Status: Offline Posts: 705 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 17 Dec 13 at 8:45am |
Here's another situation from the weekend to which I should probably know the answer but don't.
I'm tootling along down a broad reach minding my own business. A 29er with kite up tries to overtake me to leeward (big mistake), coming from clear behind me. After falling into my windshadow several times they heat it up a bit and luff slowly but surely onto the heading they should have been on in the first place (sailing a higher and faster course). As I'm alongside them I have to luff up above the heading for the mark. I want to head straight for the mark but the 29er wants to head above it and then gybe back to it later down the reach. Now, there is no sudden luffing by the 29er and I have plenty of time to keep clear. The question is, should I have to? I think I know a boat coming from behind and getting an overlap to leeward cannot then luff above his proper course. However, the 29er was not luffing above her proper course, it was just that her proper course was a much higher heading than mine.
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jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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They are not allowed to luff above their proper course Steve....Personally I would have told them not to sail above their proper course (which is in absence of you as their course change was because of your wind shadow).
We did this to death a few weeks back.....
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Naahh. You can't go reading your assumptions that a leeward boat sailing through wind-shadow will necessarily be sailing above her proper course into somebody else's scenario. OP said:
Leeward boat was bound by rule 17 not to sail above her proper course and OP expressly said she complied with that.
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6661 |
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And just to add the detail: there can be more than one proper course, and the leeward and right of way boat gets to sail her proper course, and the windward and give way boat just has to put up with it.
IMHO the best thing for the windward boat to do is to luff up hard, let the sail flap and then duck behind leewards transom. |
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catmandoo ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Mar 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 545 |
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Jeese the poor ole assymetric did the gentlemanly thing and went through your lee , sailing below his proper course as you say and consequently slowing himself down , rather than blasting over and taking your wind ,albeit for a short time , praps you have a reputation of slowing yourself down by luffing passing assymetric boats and that's why he went below , some assy metrics grind to a halt when sailing too low and cannot even do this , sounds like the poor fellow was going to upset you whatever way he went , short of gybing before he got to you , personally I would have had to sail over the top of you if that was the side of the course i favoured.
It's always a big prob when dissimilar boats are passing each other , course of least conflict is fastest .for both concerned .
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iansmithofotley ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: Otley, West Yorkshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
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Hi
Jim, Yes,
I agree – it happens all the time at my club particularly on windward/leeward
courses. The
single sail boats such as Lasers, Finns, Contenders and Phantoms round the
windward mark on to the run, which in the prevailing wind conditions, is usually
on starboard tack and often they are confronted with a rash of asymmetric boats
such as 49ers, Mustos, 800’s, Vortices, 400’s, 200’s and 100’s sailing from the
leeward side on the same tack, all coming across at different speeds and
angles. Some are on the same lap or
the faster boats may be lapping. It
is often very difficult to decide what to do in order to prevent being luffed
off the reservoir. With even the
best ‘forward planning’ it can still be very difficult to keep clear or get
through a gap behind them. Under
the present rules, I don’t think that there is an answer to the problem other
than as I have described. It never
used to be a problem with the symmetric spinnaker boats (we don’t have many at
our club nowadays other than the odd Fireball). It’s
a lot easier when they have to gybe and have to cross on port tack, at least
they have to keep out of your way until you reach the zone. I
know that they don’t have to do it, but there never seems to be any
consideration from the asymmetric sailors for the single sail boats that are trying
to sail the rhum line. You never know whether they are doing it deliberately or
they just haven’t seen you because they are concentrating on what they are
doing or they are only looking out for other asymmetric boats on the same tack. But ‘hey’
that’s sailing. Ian (Yorkshire Dales SC) |
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Steve411 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 08 Location: Cheddar, Somerset, England Online Status: Offline Posts: 705 |
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The assymetric did exactly the wrong thing actually. By trying to go past me to leeward on a broad reach they slowed themselves up initially and then me as well as I had to go up with them until I could bear away across their transom. What they should have done is gone past quickly to windward. There is absolutely no point luffing something a lot quicker - I much prefer to go low whenever I can on reaches. So to be clear - the 29er can luff to her proper course and I have to keep clear, even though I have to sail above my proper course? That's OK - I thought that was probably the case - that's why I didn't say anything and kept clear.
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andymck ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397 |
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If I was on the protest committee I would have asked the 29er what had changed in the prevailing conditions to make their "proper course" change so much. The usual answer is because I am an asymmetric. I really do feel this is a scenario the law makers should look at. Again the wind shadow was the main reason they decided to sail higher, but it does seem they did this the right way, ie gently. The problem we all have, and I have been on both sides of this argument is it is very difficult to define the proper course for a high powered asymmetric boat. Quite often there are at least two points of sail, high or low on 2 different tacks, which then change as soon as the apparent wind picks up or drops. I must admit to being a much more polite sailor using the if you go below you stay low mantra. It's not just an issue with asymmetrics, happens all the time in lasers trying to stay in the gust flipping between high and by the lee mode as well.
The speed differential is obviously less though. Just realised we never even got into the effect of apparent wind on the proper course debate before, only the prevailing conditions. I would like to see a go below you stay low rule for this sort of racing. The asymmetric could always gybe out and back again if needed. Andy Edited by andymck - 17 Dec 13 at 6:50pm |
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Andy Mck
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Steve411 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 08 Location: Cheddar, Somerset, England Online Status: Offline Posts: 705 |
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No, it had nothing to do with the wind shadow. They tried to go below me but in so doing were really sailing way below their fastest course. My wind shadow merely meant they couldn't pull through my lee. They realised that going low and below was not going to work and then came up to a faster course which is what they should have done to start with.
Agree that gybing away and back again would have been a good move, but I think they were getting agitated a bit as a few other 29ers were screaming past to windward and they wanted to get up there. They did eventually (and politely!).
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6661 |
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I didn't think there was anything in the OP suggesting it had... My interpretation of the original post is this ![]() 29er green, rs300 red |
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