Windward boat/proper course
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11265
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 2:35pm
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Topic: Windward boat/proper course
Posted By: Steve411
Subject: Windward boat/proper course
Date Posted: 17 Dec 13 at 8:45am
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Here's another situation from the weekend to which I should probably know the answer but don't.
I'm tootling along down a broad reach minding my own business. A 29er with kite up tries to overtake me to leeward (big mistake), coming from clear behind me. After falling into my windshadow several times they heat it up a bit and luff slowly but surely onto the heading they should have been on in the first place (sailing a higher and faster course). As I'm alongside them I have to luff up above the heading for the mark. I want to head straight for the mark but the 29er wants to head above it and then gybe back to it later down the reach. Now, there is no sudden luffing by the 29er and I have plenty of time to keep clear. The question is, should I have to? I think I know a boat coming from behind and getting an overlap to leeward cannot then luff above his proper course. However, the 29er was not luffing above her proper course, it was just that her proper course was a much higher heading than mine. ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Replies:
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Dec 13 at 8:55am
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They are not allowed to luff above their proper course Steve....Personally I would have told them not to sail above their proper course (which is in absence of you as their course change was because of your wind shadow).
We did this to death a few weeks back..... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 17 Dec 13 at 10:08am
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Naahh. You can't go reading your assumptions that a leeward boat sailing through wind-shadow will necessarily be sailing above her proper course into somebody else's scenario. OP said:
Leeward boat was bound by rule 17 not to sail above her proper course and OP expressly said she complied with that.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Dec 13 at 11:46am
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And just to add the detail: there can be more than one proper course, and the leeward and right of way boat gets to sail her proper course, and the windward and give way boat just has to put up with it.
IMHO the best thing for the windward boat to do is to luff up hard, let the sail flap and then duck behind leewards transom. |
Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 17 Dec 13 at 12:41pm
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Jeese the poor ole assymetric did the gentlemanly thing and went through your lee , sailing below his proper course as you say and consequently slowing himself down , rather than blasting over and taking your wind ,albeit for a short time , praps you have a reputation of slowing yourself down by luffing passing assymetric boats and that's why he went below , some assy metrics grind to a halt when sailing too low and cannot even do this , sounds like the poor fellow was going to upset you whatever way he went , short of gybing before he got to you , personally I would have had to sail over the top of you if that was the side of the course i favoured. It's always a big prob when dissimilar boats are passing each other , course of least conflict is fastest .for both concerned . ------------- |
Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 17 Dec 13 at 1:10pm
Hi
Jim, Yes,
I agree – it happens all the time at my club particularly on windward/leeward
courses. The
single sail boats such as Lasers, Finns, Contenders and Phantoms round the
windward mark on to the run, which in the prevailing wind conditions, is usually
on starboard tack and often they are confronted with a rash of asymmetric boats
such as 49ers, Mustos, 800’s, Vortices, 400’s, 200’s and 100’s sailing from the
leeward side on the same tack, all coming across at different speeds and
angles. Some are on the same lap or
the faster boats may be lapping. It
is often very difficult to decide what to do in order to prevent being luffed
off the reservoir. With even the
best ‘forward planning’ it can still be very difficult to keep clear or get
through a gap behind them. Under
the present rules, I don’t think that there is an answer to the problem other
than as I have described. It never
used to be a problem with the symmetric spinnaker boats (we don’t have many at
our club nowadays other than the odd Fireball). It’s
a lot easier when they have to gybe and have to cross on port tack, at least
they have to keep out of your way until you reach the zone. I
know that they don’t have to do it, but there never seems to be any
consideration from the asymmetric sailors for the single sail boats that are trying
to sail the rhum line. You never know whether they are doing it deliberately or
they just haven’t seen you because they are concentrating on what they are
doing or they are only looking out for other asymmetric boats on the same tack. But ‘hey’
that’s sailing. Ian (Yorkshire Dales SC) |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 17 Dec 13 at 5:38pm
The assymetric did exactly the wrong thing actually. By trying to go past me to leeward on a broad reach they slowed themselves up initially and then me as well as I had to go up with them until I could bear away across their transom. What they should have done is gone past quickly to windward. There is absolutely no point luffing something a lot quicker - I much prefer to go low whenever I can on reaches. So to be clear - the 29er can luff to her proper course and I have to keep clear, even though I have to sail above my proper course? That's OK - I thought that was probably the case - that's why I didn't say anything and kept clear. ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 17 Dec 13 at 6:48pm
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If I was on the protest committee I would have asked the 29er what had changed in the prevailing conditions to make their "proper course" change so much. The usual answer is because I am an asymmetric. I really do feel this is a scenario the law makers should look at. Again the wind shadow was the main reason they decided to sail higher, but it does seem they did this the right way, ie gently. The problem we all have, and I have been on both sides of this argument is it is very difficult to define the proper course for a high powered asymmetric boat. Quite often there are at least two points of sail, high or low on 2 different tacks, which then change as soon as the apparent wind picks up or drops. I must admit to being a much more polite sailor using the if you go below you stay low mantra. It's not just an issue with asymmetrics, happens all the time in lasers trying to stay in the gust flipping between high and by the lee mode as well.
The speed differential is obviously less though. Just realised we never even got into the effect of apparent wind on the proper course debate before, only the prevailing conditions. I would like to see a go below you stay low rule for this sort of racing. The asymmetric could always gybe out and back again if needed. Andy ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 17 Dec 13 at 7:31pm
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No, it had nothing to do with the wind shadow. They tried to go below me but in so doing were really sailing way below their fastest course. My wind shadow merely meant they couldn't pull through my lee. They realised that going low and below was not going to work and then came up to a faster course which is what they should have done to start with.
Agree that gybing away and back again would have been a good move, but I think they were getting agitated a bit as a few other 29ers were screaming past to windward and they wanted to get up there. They did eventually (and politely!). ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Dec 13 at 7:33pm
I didn't think there was anything in the OP suggesting it had... My interpretation of the original post is this 
29er green, rs300 red |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 18 Dec 13 at 8:15am
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That's a very interesting interpretation of two boats on a broad reach with one coming from clear astern and choosing to go below.
"After falling into my wind shadow several times" suggests this had a big influence on the 29ers decision making. Had the agreed tracks been as in your diagram, there is a good case to say that green was forced to sail below his proper course by red not going up soon enough, (point of view of green, not red). Of course there is no indication of relative positions. I interpreted the description as both on a broad reach ie parallel course and green chose to go below, which is the normal point where I have seen these sorts of conflicts arise. Otherwise we would could have expected the 29er to gybe. If we do assume it was more of a parallel course, and now instead of a 29er vs rs300. We have say an RS300 vs Solo, same situation, where first rs300 tries to go below and does not get through, the next rs300 goes high to get over the top, can the first one now luff to join the high boats? Or has he just made a bad tactical decision and has to sort himself out? I have been struggling with this since the late 90's, and feel the slower boat needs some protection. On a run I think these situations only really become an issue, where both boats tend anticipate better near the mark. Andy ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 18 Dec 13 at 8:30am
Yes, that's pretty much as it was. We reverted to the original course, or close to it, when a big gust came through and the 29er picked it up and bore off towards the mark (she had poked her bow ahead of mine when we both headed up and that allowed he to get out of my wind shadow and get the gust). ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Dec 13 at 9:45am
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This is all pretty normal stuff. Could equally have been an RS600 sailing with a bit of heat and a Laser running by the lee.
Fast boat comes up to leeward and faster sailing higher. Has the option of luffing round the slow boats stern and passing aggressively close to windward, or soaking down a bit and going thro to leeward, which will often work. Decides to take the gentlemanly approach, but stalls in the dirty air and doesn't get through. Now has no choice but to go back up to proper course to get the speed back on. Slow boat, seeing someone attempting a lee side pass, might well benefit from pointing up a tad for a couple of secs and letting them through: after all you probably want to encourage the fast boats to take the leeward side option. |