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Sailing the course.

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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sailing the course.
    Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 11:49pm
Originally posted by Rupert

So, my understanding is that a race committee can protest a boat for sailing the wrong course,
Yes
Originally posted by Rupert

but more common is that they tell the person that it has happened,
Maybe 
Originally posted by Rupert

and that person retires from the race unless they disagree.
Maybe, but it's a nice way of doing it as long at the race committee tells boats after they have finished.
Originally posted by Rupert

I assume the latter path is perfectly within the spirit of the rules,
Don't mess with the 'spirit' of the rules.
 
It's quite difficult enough dealing with what the rules actually say without mucking about with what somebody says they ought to have said.
 
It's OK for a race committee to communicate with boats to encourage them to retire if they have broken a rule as long as the race committee does not exert any inappropriate pressure and doesn't make any mistakes.
Originally posted by Rupert

and that a protest doesn't HAVE to occur?
See my reply to JimC.
 
Except when it has received a written report from a measurer or equipment inspector a race committee never HAS to protest a boat.
 
But if a boat that has broken rule 28 is to be penalised, SOMEBODY has to make a valid protest. 
Originally posted by Rupert

And if they tell a boat they have missed a mark when the boat is still racing, that would be fine, too, but it is up to the sailor what they do with that information?
There are problems if the race committee tells one boat that it has made a rule 28 error before she has finished and that boat, instead of retiring, corrects her error as she is allowed to do under rule 28.2, while there is another boat that has also made a rule 28 error but has not been told about it.
 
Race committees have to be careful about talking to boats while they are racing.
 
You would expect a race committee anywhere above club level to keep their mouths shut and leave racing to the racers.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote merlingrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 13 at 12:30pm
I was the race officer concerned and wish to reply to the various contributors . The fault is with the wording of Rule 28.1 in that it states that "... she may leave on either side a mark that does not begin ,bound or end the leg SHE IS SAILING " (NB not SHOULD be sailing ). There is no doubt that the boats concerned were consciously sailing from the spreader mark to mark 3 ( read the report on the phantom web-site ) and hence mark 3 becomes the mark at the end of the leg the boat is sailing and in order to correct their mistake the boats would have had to unwind from mark 3 . I have written to the RYA suggesting that SHE IS SAILING is replaced by " she is required to sail by the sailing instructions " and that a similar change should be made to the touching a mark rule .

As to communicating with the errant competitors I believe that just aa a competitor should communicate promptly with one who is to be protested so should the PRO .

My submission to the RYA is too long for this forum but it has been vetted by a barrister and the legal logic is sound . If anyone is interested in the full version e-mail me at a.chaplin700@gmail.com
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 13 at 3:01pm
Its amazing the trouble you can get yourself in by overthinking the letter of the rules... I remember being on a PC that was talking itself into a quite preposterous interpretation of a rule by similar logic chopping. Fortunately for us the competitor who was really in the wrong read through the rules before the hearing, interpreted them correctly and promptly retired, saving me from making a public idiot of myself...


Edited by JimC - 22 Sep 13 at 6:56pm
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 13 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by merlingrey

I was the race officer concerned and wish to reply to the various contributors . The fault is with the wording of Rule 28.1 in that it states that "... she may leave on either side a mark that does not begin ,bound or end the leg SHE IS SAILING " (NB not SHOULD be sailing ). There is no doubt that the boats concerned were consciously sailing from the spreader mark to mark 3 ( read the report on the phantom web-site ) and hence mark 3 becomes the mark at the end of the leg the boat is sailing and in order to correct their mistake the boats would have had to unwind from mark 3 . I have written to the RYA suggesting that SHE IS SAILING is replaced by " she is required to sail by the sailing instructions " and that a similar change should be made to the touching a mark rule .

As to communicating with the errant competitors I believe that just aa a competitor should communicate promptly with one who is to be protested so should the PRO .

My submission to the RYA is too long for this forum but it has been vetted by a barrister and the legal logic is sound . If anyone is interested in the full version e-mail me at a.chaplin700@gmail.com
 
I suggest you re-read Cases 90 and 106.
 
Case Book here:
 
 
The headnote to Case 90 puts it pretty clearly
 

CASE 90

When a boat’s string passes a mark on the required side, she does not break rule 28.2 if her string, when drawn taut, also passes that mark on the nonrequired side.

You were quoted in the OP as saying 'they would all be DSQ'd so best go home'.
 
If you didn't say that, but said that you intended to protest them for breaking rule 28 or not sailing the course and nothing more, that's fine (provided you and the OA are OK with the race committee interfereing with races in that way)
 
You could also look at Case 112 about when rule 28 is broken.


Edited by Brass - 22 Sep 13 at 3:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 7:33am
Originally posted by merlingrey

I was the race officer concerned and wish to reply to the various contributors . The fault is with the wording of Rule 28.1 in that it states that "... she may leave on either side a mark that does not begin ,bound or end the leg SHE IS SAILING " (NB not SHOULD be sailing ). There is no doubt that the boats concerned were consciously sailing from the spreader mark to mark 3 ( read the report on the phantom web-site ) and hence mark 3 becomes the mark at the end of the leg the boat is sailing and in order to correct their mistake the boats would have had to unwind from mark 3 . I have written to the RYA suggesting that SHE IS SAILING is replaced by " she is required to sail by the sailing instructions " and that a similar change should be made to the touching a mark rule .
As to communicating with the errant competitors I believe that just aa a competitor should communicate promptly with one who is to be protested so should the PRO .

My submission to the RYA is too long for this forum but it has been vetted by a barrister and the legal logic is sound . If anyone is interested in the full version e-mail me at a.chaplin700@gmail.com



The leg they are sailing is dictated by the sailing instructions. Not by what they thought they were doing, or even what you thought they were doing. Rule 28.1 is clear on that. If you could successfully argue that the mark existed as part of the leg because they think therefore it is, the end point of that argument would be that the mark would miraculously disappear once they realised their mistake.
I hope you did not pay the barrister too much.



Edited by andymck - 23 Sep 13 at 8:42am
Andy Mck
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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 10:34pm
Fortunately we apply the logic of the racing rules, in which any word not defined by the rules is used in it's dictionary definition not the tortuous logic of the legal profession.

It doesn't matter what the sailors are thinking, once they have rounded a mark they are on an leg to the next required mark. They may take any roundabout route they wish


Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 10:41pm
We had a good result on Saturday... one boat was: Did Not Sign On, Sailed wrong course, and RTD... but he still got a hooter when crossing the finishing line.

He was surprised not to be OCS as well... He says next time its the crews responsibility!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 12:34pm
The sound signal when crossing the finish line is mere convention and has no meaning in the racing rules. Giving a hoot does not signify that boat will not be penalised or protested by the RC. Personally I think this needlessly occupies on of the committee boat crew.


A case can be made out for giving a loud signal when the leading boat finishes as this sets the countdown rolling for the time limit after first boat.


Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 4:12pm
if finishing into a fierce tide, and there's no restrictions on recrossing the finish line, a hoot is useful to let you know you can turn the bow back down and head for home!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 6:16pm
A hoot, or a bell in the case of Whitefriars for all but the winner, is a polite way of telling a sailor that he can go in for lunch now, or that he can cease working so hard, or whatever. Just an acknowlegement that he exists as a competitor, really. Silence will cause more work for the RO, as people come over to find out if they were OCS, or something, or just to ask "have I finished?".
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