Sailing the course.
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11076
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 10:57pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Sailing the course.
Posted By: Noah
Subject: Sailing the course.
Date Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 1:40pm
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Several boats lobbed last weekend for sailing the wrong
course. The threatened protest didn't materialise because in each case the
result would have been a discard anyway even if redress were given. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Replies:
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 2:47pm
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You are right. Your race committee was wrong. See cases 90 and 106. And what on earth was the race committee doing telling competitors what to do in the middle of a race, and worse still, telling a competitor that they will be disqualified, when this is a decision that can only be made by the protest committee hearing a valid protest.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 3:02pm
| Think the race team had better request redress for the boats they've disadvantaged... |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 3:55pm
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Thanks Gents - I wasn't going to dwell on the wrongs and wrongs of the RC and their communications with competitors racing... Outside assistance to those helped; redress due to those they didn't. Complete minefield... ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 11:29pm
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Outside help is not an issue. Information given to any boat by a race committee will always be 'unsolicited information from a disinterested source' in accordance with rule 41( d ) (unless the boat asked for it and it was not 'unsolicited').
We want race committees to be helpfully communicating with competitors.
In this scenario, with the boat in question at least a leg behind the field, it's unlikely that there is any problem with a communication, even if it had not been wrong, giving the boat any unfair advantage.
This scenario does raise the interesting issue of whether the receiving of information, or some other action that is unhelpful could ever be a breach of rule 41, which refers to 'help from an outside source'.
Nobody's suggesting that you beat up on your race committee, but some courteous words to help them understand that they need to be careful about communicating with competitors 1) as to the correctness of what they say and 2) not appearing to direct or order competitors or to exceed the authority given to them under rule A5, are probably in order. If nobody tells them how are they ever to learn and improve? If you have a local culture of never giving feedback to the race committee even when they make mistakes, this should be turned around.
Once they understand that they stuffed up, a race committee initiated request for redress woudl be a nice 'formal' way to acknowledge their mistake and the decision would help everyone understand the rules better.
It would help the culture of the race committee taking responsiblity for their mistakes, and in my opinion, would increase, rather than diminish respect for the race committee and its members.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 11:12am
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So, my understanding is that a race committee can protest a boat for sailing the wrong course, but more common is that they tell the person that it has happened, and that person retires from the race unless they disagree. I assume the latter path is perfectly within the spirit of the rules, and that a protest doesn't HAVE to occur? And if they tell a boat they have missed a mark when the boat is still racing, that would be fine, too, but it is up to the sailor what they do with that information?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 11:27am
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An RC cannot score a boat DSQ or DNF or anything else for missing a mark. In fact they can't score them DNF at all: the only time you get scored DNF is if you don't cross the finish line.
So if the RC believes a boat didn't complete the course before finishing they need to protest if they wish the boat to be penalised [clarified after Brass' post]. It seem odd, but my understanding of the rules is that if a boat starts, doesn't go round any other marks and then crosses the finish line - what you might call a Crowhurst gambit - then they should be given a place subject to protest. The only scoring code available is the place unless they later elect to RAF or are DSQ by the PC. However be aware that SIs do sometimes change this and permit DSQ without a hearing in certain circumstances. |
Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 11:30am
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absolutely , and often the race committee can be wrong in their interperatation of "sailing the course" , hence the requirement to protest on their part . If you feel that you pass the string test with the course as defined in the Si's in conjunction with RRS (I mention RRS as hook finishes arent allowed under RRS , which takes presidence) , you are perfectly at will not to retire . ------------- |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 3:42pm
I take it you mean "... they must protest if they wish to interfere and they think the boat should be penalised" There is only ONE circumstance where a race committee must protest: when it receives a written report from an equipment inspector or measurer under rules
43.1(c) or 78.3.
Yup. The RYA has at least three appeals saying this, 1985/4, 1989/8 and 2006/8 (although RYA 1986/6 does say 'When a boat abandons her attempt to sail the course,
she may be deemed to have retired ...') And this year we RET, we do not RAF.
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Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 8:33pm
Lucky we don't have that RO at our puddle. We have sometimes have a sausage triangle course set and being of advancing years and short term memory is not what it was I get a little confused and forget what I did last time round. On the puddle it sometimes pays to go to one side so I do the triangle bit anyway I don't lose much if anything and I know I have sailed the right course. 
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 11:49pm
Yes
Maybe
Maybe, but it's a nice way of doing it as long at the race committee tells boats after they have finished.
Don't mess with the 'spirit' of the rules.
It's quite difficult enough dealing with what the rules actually say without mucking about with what somebody says they ought to have said.
It's OK for a race committee to communicate with boats to encourage them to retire if they have broken a rule as long as the race committee does not exert any inappropriate pressure and doesn't make any mistakes.
See my reply to JimC.
Except when it has received a written report from a measurer or equipment inspector a race committee never HAS to protest a boat.
But if a boat that has broken rule 28 is to be penalised, SOMEBODY has to make a valid protest.
There are problems if the race committee tells one boat that it has made a rule 28 error before she has finished and that boat, instead of retiring, corrects her error as she is allowed to do under rule 28.2, while there is another boat that has also made a rule 28 error but has not been told about it.
Race committees have to be careful about talking to boats while they are racing.
You would expect a race committee anywhere above club level to keep their mouths shut and leave racing to the racers. |
Posted By: merlingrey
Date Posted: 22 Sep 13 at 12:30pm
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I was the race officer concerned and wish to reply to the various contributors . The fault is with the wording of Rule 28.1 in that it states that "... she may leave on either side a mark that does not begin ,bound or end the leg SHE IS SAILING " (NB not SHOULD be sailing ). There is no doubt that the boats concerned were consciously sailing from the spreader mark to mark 3 ( read the report on the phantom web-site ) and hence mark 3 becomes the mark at the end of the leg the boat is sailing and in order to correct their mistake the boats would have had to unwind from mark 3 . I have written to the RYA suggesting that SHE IS SAILING is replaced by " she is required to sail by the sailing instructions " and that a similar change should be made to the touching a mark rule .
As to communicating with the errant competitors I believe that just aa a competitor should communicate promptly with one who is to be protested so should the PRO . My submission to the RYA is too long for this forum but it has been vetted by a barrister and the legal logic is sound . If anyone is interested in the full version e-mail me at a.chaplin700@gmail.com |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Sep 13 at 3:01pm
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Its amazing the trouble you can get yourself in by overthinking the letter of the rules... I remember being on a PC that was talking itself into a quite preposterous interpretation of a rule by similar logic chopping. Fortunately for us the competitor who was really in the wrong read through the rules before the hearing, interpreted them correctly and promptly retired, saving me from making a public idiot of myself...
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 22 Sep 13 at 3:22pm
I suggest you re-read Cases 90 and 106. Case Book here: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/20132016ISAFCaseBook-%5b14819%5d.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/20132016ISAFCaseBook-[14819].pdf The headnote to Case 90 puts it pretty clearly
You were quoted in the OP as saying 'they would all be DSQ'd so best go home'. If you didn't say that, but said that you intended to protest them for breaking rule 28 or not sailing the course and nothing more, that's fine (provided you and the OA are OK with the race committee interfereing with races in that way) You could also look at Case 112 about when rule 28 is broken.
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Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 7:33am
The leg they are sailing is dictated by the sailing instructions. Not by what they thought they were doing, or even what you thought they were doing. Rule 28.1 is clear on that. If you could successfully argue that the mark existed as part of the leg because they think therefore it is, the end point of that argument would be that the mark would miraculously disappear once they realised their mistake. I hope you did not pay the barrister too much. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 10:34pm
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Fortunately we apply the logic of the racing rules, in which any word not defined by the rules is used in it's dictionary definition not the tortuous logic of the legal profession. It doesn't matter what the sailors are thinking, once they have rounded a mark they are on an leg to the next required mark. They may take any roundabout route they wish ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: ChrisJ
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 10:41pm
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We had a good result on Saturday... one boat was: Did Not Sign On, Sailed wrong course, and RTD... but he still got a hooter when crossing the finishing line.
He was surprised not to be OCS as well... He says next time its the crews responsibility!! |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 12:34pm
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The sound signal when crossing the finish line is mere convention and has no meaning in the racing rules. Giving a hoot does not signify that boat will not be penalised or protested by the RC. Personally I think this needlessly occupies on of the committee boat crew. A case can be made out for giving a loud signal when the leading boat finishes as this sets the countdown rolling for the time limit after first boat. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 4:12pm
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if finishing into a fierce tide, and there's no restrictions on recrossing the finish line, a hoot is useful to let you know you can turn the bow back down and head for home! ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 6:16pm
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A hoot, or a bell in the case of Whitefriars for all but the winner, is a polite way of telling a sailor that he can go in for lunch now, or that he can cease working so hard, or whatever. Just an acknowlegement that he exists as a competitor, really. Silence will cause more work for the RO, as people come over to find out if they were OCS, or something, or just to ask "have I finished?". ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 10:38pm
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Nautical etiquette rather than aything else. Just because you get a gu/whistle/bell doesn't mean that your are not OCS, BFD or that the RC is not going to protest you!
------------- Gordon |