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Curtains for Assymetrics?

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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 5:47pm
Ruscoe, racing ain't watching. Sometimes the outsider sees more of the big picture. I was surprised the first time because it was so contra received opinion, but it was striking just how much reaching speed affected the tactical options on the next beat. Much more so than a run, where there's a tendency to just get bunched up by the gusts.

Edited by JimC - 17 Sep 13 at 5:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 5:34pm
In your opinion James. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 5:25pm
I have to agree with Jim- give a Solo on a bit of space and those reaching legs become crucial- the weight of the helmsman plays out, but also the skill of soaking in the lulls and catching the gusts- all in collaboration with which lane to take at the mark.  There are a couple of bigger guys who don't seem to suffer as badly as me in the reaches- they say they have to work far hard and sail much smarter on these legs.... experience will help me in the longer term, in the short term getting under 95kg is the goal for this winter- aim to be 90 ish for next year's wednesday nights.

Either way, it's certainly more 'tactical' than who can hike the hardest and fight the inability of a hiking asymmetric to generate the righting moment really necessary to get proper apparent wind sailing going (B14 graciously excluded). 


Edited by yellowwelly - 17 Sep 13 at 5:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Ruscoe

Pretty much all the boats travel at the same speed between the marks.  The positions change when on a downwind leg or a beat


Firstly I suspect you need to spend some more time watching Solos racing. I tend to end up stuck on the bank at our opens doing photos and results, so I've had to do that. They do vary in reaching speed appreciably, and it can have a big effect on the results. The fast reaching boat that opens up a gap behind and closes up the gap ahead is clear to attack and concentrate on overtaking the next bunch, or just slap a loose cover over the pack behind, whilst the slow reaching boat with a pack snapping at their heels has no choice put to sail defensively and is very vulnerable to a split: its quite striking.
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How about the number of years i actually raced them Jim, will that do you?  I suspect i have more experience of them than you watching your club open each year.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote gbr940 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by AlanH

Agree, assy kites on slow boats, very bad idea. Assies on medium boats, not very good idea. Assies on fast boats, yes that's the only place they should be, but an assy alone doesnt make an exciting boat. For those who want speed, in future a people's foiler would generally be a better alternative, giving a bigger speed boost. I'd rather spend time learning to sail a Moth than a Musto Skiff. The MS is a very good skiff but needs lot of time.
However not many people sail very fast boats, so we shouldn't obsess too much about them. For mass market boats, quality of racing is more important than speed.
This forum mostly considers the helm/ owner's perspective. However if crewing, then either a symmetrical spi, or a jib with dangly pole, gives far more challenge/ interest than an assy does.

Couldn't disagree more stongly. Another boat you're forgetting is the B14...we have hovered the same number of entries at Nationals for quite some time and have a great group of people. The boat hasn't changed much since the 90's, albeit builder spec and slow introduction of Carbon upgrades and sail development, but all in a cost effective way. I've definitely seen a bigger mix of gender sailing an MPS over iMoths and i'm pretty sure that there are more MPS sailors then Moths at Nationals and even open meetings.

As for tactical calls - nah they are both the same, if you're not pushing yourself on a run physically in either boat then the boat isn't performing at it's best tactically. A well executed high-speed gybe is awesome to watch, same as watching a Merlin ballet dancing through it's gybe. 

As Dougal quite rightly said - it's horses for courses, at our club we are seeing a growing B14 fleet and Lark fleet along with newly developing iMoth fleet. Variation is what makes the UK dinghy scene so unique and great!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by Ruscoe

Pretty much all the boats travel at the same speed between the marks.  The positions change when on a downwind leg or a beat


Firstly I suspect you need to spend some more time watching Solos racing. I tend to end up stuck on the bank at our opens doing photos and results, so I've had to do that. They do vary in reaching speed appreciably, and it can have a big effect on the results. The fast reaching boat that opens up a gap behind and closes up the gap ahead is clear to attack and concentrate on overtaking the next bunch, or just slap a loose cover over the pack behind, whilst the slow reaching boat with a pack snapping at their heels has no choice put to sail defensively and is very vulnerable to a split: its quite striking.

Personally I got fed up with W/Ls after a couple of seasons. Its just a vmg contest all the time. The sport can be more than that. In high performance boats legs that are higher than the optimum kite speed offer enormous opportunities to the canny sailor who makes best use of gusts, lulls, when to hoist, when to drop, all the rest of it.

And as a forward hand when I sail two handers, whilst its entertaining to go back to a pole kite from time to time for the odd race, I couldn't cope with using one all the time. Too tedious, and I mentally can't cope with the inefficiency of the silly short poles.

Edited by JimC - 17 Sep 13 at 2:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AlanH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 1:58pm
Agree, assy kites on slow boats, very bad idea. Assies on medium boats, not very good idea. Assies on fast boats, yes that's the only place they should be, but an assy alone doesnt make an exciting boat. For those who want speed, in future a people's foiler would generally be a better alternative, giving a bigger speed boost. I'd rather spend time learning to sail a Moth than a Musto Skiff. The MS is a very good skiff but needs lot of time.
However not many people sail very fast boats, so we shouldn't obsess too much about them. For mass market boats, quality of racing is more important than speed.
This forum mostly considers the helm/ owner's perspective. However if crewing, then either a symmetrical spi, or a jib with dangly pole, gives far more challenge/ interest than an assy does.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Rupert

But the reaching is the fun bit! straight line speed - and yes, tactical, because you need toposition yourself correctly - up on the plane, enjoying yourself.

Yes, the leeward leg is tactical. In a slow assy the main tactic is trying to soak low without losing too much speed, as you know that all the guys who blast off in a cloud of spray will have to sail far too far to actually get to the bottom mark before the boring soakers. Yawn.

Yes, in an 800, or a 29er, or whatever, the speed will be there to do it in fairly light winds, but in the heavy family boats, it has to be blowing half a gale before it becomes quicker to point up than soak low, and even then goosewinging wouldn't lose you much, if anything.

I think therein lies the truth, a huge part of the problem is people misread the conditions and blast off at too high an angle.  I know I am guilty of sailing too hot sometimes.

 

As for the tactical options on a reach.  They are fairly basic, at most class opens I have done in boats like the Solo they offer very little in terms of passing opportunity.  Handicap racing, yes.  It’s a chance for a Phantom to really open the taps up, but really it’s nothing to the tactical options offered by and assy on a W//L course.  Going low or high, spotting the shifts, spotting your opponents, having an idea what the tide is doing, nailing the layline and mark rounding.  Not to mention quick hoists and drops. 

 

IMNSHO it’s just a lack of general understanding which seems endemic in the dinghy sailing world.  People don’t understand W/L racing, they don’t understand when to sail high or low.  it’s all about time in the boat, but I don’t see many decent training videos or proper coaching tips to help people learn faster.  its only since I have taken cycling up more recently that I have realised how behind the times the dinghy world is.  Albeit a much, much, much smaller sport.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 1:36pm
Asymmetric kite on slow boats is not so good.
I find it amusing sailing a run on starboard by the lee in a Pico at almost the same angle as a Feva on port gybe - it tends to confuse them when you call starboard!  (when  they are expecting you to be windward boat ) When they gybe onto starboard, they are sailing at nearly 90 degrees to my course. Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 1:34pm
But the reaching is the fun bit! straight line speed - and yes, tactical, because you need toposition yourself correctly - up on the plane, enjoying yourself.

Yes, the leeward leg is tactical. In a slow assy the main tactic is trying to soak low without losing too much speed, as you know that all the guys who blast off in a cloud of spray will have to sail far too far to actually get to the bottom mark before the boring soakers. Yawn.

Yes, in an 800, or a 29er, or whatever, the speed will be there to do it in fairly light winds, but in the heavy family boats, it has to be blowing half a gale before it becomes quicker to point up than soak low, and even then goosewinging wouldn't lose you much, if anything.
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