New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Sailing the course.
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Sailing the course.
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Noah View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Dec 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sailing the course.
    Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 1:40pm

Several boats lobbed last weekend for sailing the wrong course. The threatened protest didn't materialise because in each case the result would have been a discard anyway even if redress were given.

Course was triangle / sausage with a spreader mark at the top of the sausage (Start – 1 – 2 – 3 – 1 – 1a – 3 – 1 – 2 – 3 – Finish). All marks to Port. The miscreants went Start – 1 – 1a – 3 – 2 – 3, then the race team said that they would all be DSQ'd so best go home. Race team justification was that they hadn't 'unwound' from the 'erroneous' passing of 3 in the wrong sequence, and using the string theory #3 was trapped.

Rules say that marks of the course shall be passed on the correct side and in the correct order (no surprise there, really). BUT also stated is that a mark that does not start, bound or end a leg is not a mark of the course (or words to that effect). Rule 28 is relevant.

So I reckon that mark 3 is irrelevant for the 1 – 2 leg. If you really want to take the scenic route via the leeward mark to the gybe mark, then that’s up to you.

I'm looking for case history on this but not found any yet. If the RO is right then I can forsee all sorts of chaos on puddle courses with marks all over the place being passed on both sides when the correct course is to pass on a specified side on a specified leg.

Thoughts?
Nick
D-Zero 316

Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 2:47pm
You are right.
 
Your race committee was wrong.
 
See cases 90 and 106.
 
And what on earth was the race committee doing telling competitors what to do in the middle of a race, and worse still, telling a competitor that they will be disqualified, when this is a decision that can only be made by the protest committee hearing a valid protest.
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 3:02pm
Think the race team had better request redress for the boats they've disadvantaged...
Back to Top
Noah View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Dec 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 3:55pm
Thanks Gents - I wasn't going to dwell on the wrongs and wrongs of the RC and their communications with competitors racing... Outside assistance to those helped; redress due to those they didn't. Complete minefield...
Nick
D-Zero 316

Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 11:29pm
Outside help is not an issue.  Information given to any boat by a race committee will always be 'unsolicited information from a disinterested source' in accordance with rule 41( d ) (unless the boat asked for it and it was not 'unsolicited').
 
We want race committees to be helpfully communicating with competitors.
 
In this scenario, with the boat in question at least a leg behind the field, it's unlikely that there is any problem with a communication, even if it had not been wrong, giving the boat any unfair advantage.
 
This scenario does raise the interesting issue of whether the receiving of information, or some other action that is unhelpful could ever be a breach of rule 41, which refers to 'help from an outside source'.
 
Nobody's suggesting that you beat up on your race committee, but some courteous words to help them understand that they need to be careful about communicating with competitors 1) as to the correctness of what they say and 2) not appearing to direct or order competitors or to exceed the authority given to them under rule A5, are probably in order.  If nobody tells them how are they ever to learn and improve?  If you have a local culture of never giving feedback to the race committee even when they make mistakes, this should be turned around.
 
Once they understand that they stuffed up, a race committee initiated request for redress woudl be a nice 'formal' way to acknowledge their mistake and the decision would help everyone understand the rules better.
 
It would help the culture of the race committee taking responsiblity for their mistakes, and in my opinion, would increase, rather than diminish respect for the race committee and its members.
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 11:12am
So, my understanding is that a race committee can protest a boat for sailing the wrong course, but more common is that they tell the person that it has happened, and that person retires from the race unless they disagree. I assume the latter path is perfectly within the spirit of the rules, and that a protest doesn't HAVE to occur? And if they tell a boat they have missed a mark when the boat is still racing, that would be fine, too, but it is up to the sailor what they do with that information?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 11:27am
An RC cannot score a boat DSQ or DNF or anything else for missing a mark. In fact they can't score them DNF at all: the only time you get scored DNF is if you don't cross the finish line.

So if the RC believes a boat didn't complete the course before finishing they need to protest if they wish the boat to be penalised [clarified after Brass' post].

It seem odd, but my understanding of the rules is that if a boat starts, doesn't go round any other marks and then crosses the finish line - what you might call a Crowhurst gambit - then they should be given a place subject to protest. The only scoring code available is the place unless they later elect to RAF or are DSQ by the PC.

However be aware that SIs do sometimes change this and permit DSQ without a hearing in certain circumstances.

Edited by JimC - 12 Sep 13 at 6:06pm
Back to Top
catmandoo View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 16 Mar 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 545 		Post Options Post Options   Quote catmandoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 11:30am
absolutely , and often the race committee can be wrong in their interperatation  of "sailing the course" , hence the requirement to protest on their part . If you feel that you pass the string test with the course as defined in the Si's in conjunction with RRS (I mention RRS as hook finishes arent allowed under RRS , which takes presidence) , you are perfectly at will not to retire .
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by JimC

An RC cannot score a boat DSQ or DNF or anything else for missing a mark. In fact they can't score them DNF at all: the only time you get scored DNF is if you don't cross the finish line.

So if the RC believes a boat didn't complete the course before finishing they must protest.
I take it you mean "... they must protest if they wish to interfere and they think the boat should be penalised"
 
There is only ONE circumstance where a race committee must protest:  when it receives a written report from an equipment inspector or measurer under rules 43.1(c) or 78.3.
 
Originally posted by JimC

It seem odd, but my understanding of the rules is that if a boat starts, doesn't go round any other marks and then crosses the finish line - what you might call a Crowhurst gambit - then they should be given a place subject to protest. The only scoring code available is the place unless they later elect to RAF or are DSQ by the PC.
Yup.
 
The RYA has at least three appeals saying this, 1985/4, 1989/8 and 2006/8 (although RYA 1986/6 does say 'When a boat abandons her attempt to sail the course, she may be deemed to have retired ...')
 
And this year we RET, we do not RAF.


Edited by Brass - 12 Sep 13 at 3:56pm
Back to Top
rogerd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 25 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1076 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 8:33pm
Lucky we don't have that RO at our puddle. We have sometimes have a sausage triangle course set and being of advancing years and short term memory is not what it was I get a little confused and forget what I did last time round. On the puddle it sometimes pays to go to one side so I do the triangle bit anyway I don't lose much if anything and I know I have sailed the right course.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy