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    Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 8:42am
Perhaps the RYA  (or somesuch) should have an R and D department to follow up ideas and developments. If I were a manufacturer I would be reluctant to develop a new idea because the only way to recover my investment would be to sell the developed project in numbers. Badly put, but you know what I mean.

If this department developed a new radical craft and then allowed manufacturers to build it starting at a set date then introduced it to the pinnacle of the sport, the Olympics?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 8:07am
Hi Chris

well its an apparently  reasonable challenge that you set and, perhaps I am wrong, but I think you are assuming I am arguing the "higher and faster is better for all" argument - I am not.  What I see is no more than what has been pointed out by others on this thread already that the dinghy sailing world suffers from a sort of over conservatism (small c) caused by the dominance of a few old classes (e.g. Laser, Oppie) that at some point (soon I hope or it will be too late for me) will inevitably have to be replaced by newer and better things.  The problem is that their huge numbers hold back development and improvement.  So I'm not quite sure what data could be used to measure this difference between the world we have and a conceptual world without such over-dominant classes.  It a bit like asking what would have happened if we had taken another wicket just before tea? we will never know.  

And unless I have missed it, where is the data you have presented to support your argument (whatever that is??).  People in this thread have already questioned whether the effects you claim are not more likely related to a divergence in the number of classes, rather than to simpler supposed relationships between any of boat age/ease of sailing/slowness and sailor numbers.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 2:30am
Originally posted by r2d2

and its not just GRF has some of these views - I only say this so that the debate isn't just ignored because its assumed that there is just one guy with odd views who should perhaps be humoured and ignored.
It's certainly not just GRF. However, with respect for those who hold different opinions, there doesn't seem to be many people (any?) who hold "Grumpstyle" views and are prepared to back it up with evidence such as numerical information on trends in the sport, studies, surveys or historical data, or valid analogies from other popular participant sports.
 
For example, if someone felt that speed and new classes attracted people then they should be able to show (for example) that "X" new catamaran classes have been launched recently, that performance therefore increased "Y", and that the number of people sailing cats increased "Z", or at least point to some trends or general indications about that. The stuff I can find (from diverse sources such as Australian cat regattas and the fluctuation in various types of Hobie in the USA) indicates no such trend.
 
It would be fascinating if you or someone with your views could scratch up some hard data so this discussion could be balanced by factual evidence from the "other side".
 


Edited by Chris 249 - 08 Aug 13 at 4:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 2:20am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Chris....you and Jim are the last people that I'd think of as anything but thorough, for I know that we share the view that properly conducted research gives a far more balanced answer than many of the knee jerk comments than some of these threads can attract. Take the oft expressed viewpoint that if the sport could but free itself of the so called 'farmyard classes' that we'd suddenly see a revolution in the sport. Of course people are entitled to their own views, to me though the baseline data just doesn't support the proposition.
In one of the talks I give I've some interesting slides that show that as you add sails/sail area whilst lightening the hull, that you end up with faster boats but a smaller pool of people capable of sailing them. This isn't 'the factor' but it sure is one of them! Another is taking the sailing 'experience' in it's totality - not just what happens afloat but the whole thing - from being part of a class, to having similar boats to race against, to being with like minded people.

Incidentally - you should remember this...with reference to iGFR's comments about box rules - just before the big bucks renaming from the IYRU to ISAF there was indeed a plan for an 'open' twin wire 15ft dinghy. This was indeed to be subject to a simple box rule and rig restrictions but got overtaken by events elsewhere and the idea died a death! Somewhere I still have some IYRU papers on this - will see if I can dig them out!
D
Cheers and well said! I can also completely agree that it's the whole experience that counts.
 
I have Jack Knights' article about the IYRU 5m dinghy, but no scanner. It did look like an amazing boat for its day.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 2:06am
Originally posted by iGRF

The blinkered view that GRF witters on about is that Fast and High Performance needn't necessarily be difficult or unappealing to use.

Even what we are talking about here, an old box with a gaff rig v a new wash through with a modern(ish) windsurf inspired rig, in it's way is exactly what is going on through the entire sport.

That bloody awful Finn still being used at the very highest level thanks to the boys in Blazers, I'm sure that racing would be just as TV appealing in Phantoms.

That other nice rig on the International class we talked about the other day, the Byte, ignored in favour of what a Laser Radial I guess.

Extreme Luddism at every level as far as I can see..
But fast and high performance* ISN'T difficult to use. Anyone can buy an old Hobie 20 and beat just about any dinghy to death while lounging around on the tramp with a beer. For some reason you abuse cats but they can be fantastic for what you want - and yet most people choose not to sail them because they prefer a different feel.
 
Fast and high performance in dinghies can be hard to use, but didn't your little experiment show that it's not as simple to create a fast-but-easy boat as you claim it is? Scows do hold a lot of potential but they have been widely accepted in most parts of the dinghy sailing world for decades, so it's not conservatism or Luddism that is holding them back.
 
You can actually create a high-performance monohull dinghy or skiff that can be used by typical club-level crews from 0-25 knots. The downside is that you need two masts and three sets of sails to cover the range, or a very long skinny hull, or big crew. And doesn't the RS800 come close to what you want?
 
Boards are not fast and simple, by the way. Try to find a board that can cover the wind range a good dinghy can cover, while being faster and/or easier to sail. Go to Boards mag's forum and see how many veteran windsurfers can't even do a basic move like a gybe without dropping off the plane.
 
You assume that a rig like a Radial's is inferior, but that's just from one viewpoint. I can be pretty unbiased here, IMHO, since I have had fully-battened roachy mains since the first boat I ever owned, and I still own boards and boats with both dacron pinheads and film full-battens, including one designed by Bethwaites.
 
A Radial rig is fast and simple to rig (I carry my club/training sails rolled around the mast), lasts longer at club/cruising level due to the dacron cloth, and is lighter for the cost. For some classes and sailors those are perfectly reasonable tradeoffs for the slight reduction in performance. If other sailors choose NOT to take those tradeoffs that's fine, as long as they respect those of us with different tastes or in different positions. It's not being a luddite, it's using what is fun. As Rupert said, people have very different tastes so why not respect that?
 
By the way, are you into modern alcopops instead of "oldskool" beer and wine? Are you into 21st C bit tunes and live coding rather than old man's guitar based rock? If you prefer the latter, are you a luddite or just someone who may not personally like some of the latest stuff?


Edited by Chris 249 - 08 Aug 13 at 2:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

.... putting a kid in some weird ass boat some adult decides is cooler is just cruel.


Isn't that what's going on now, putting kids in some weird ass box with a gaff rig?

Because adults think it's right because it's what happened to them..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 8:32pm
Whilst I'm all for trying something different with adult boat choices, but putting a kid in some weird ass boat some adult decides is cooler is just cruel.

Let's have that hypothetical line up... but under the proviso the Oppy team can be led by its ex sailors, complete with their olympic medals, polished Team GBR pro sailing mantra and immaculate shiny teeth. And on the O'pan Bin line you can bring their champ, along with his guide dog, basin haircut and ASDA trainers.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rodney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 5:58pm
Moving back a bit!  I was not trying to be critical of the Bic but felt a need to defend the traditional classes which IGFR is so often critical of.  IMO the traditional classes I (Solo, Ent, GP etc) are the backbone of UK dinghy sailing.
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[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk
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Post Options Post Options   Quote i tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by iGRF

A sensible approach would be a box rule for both a fast single hander and twin hander single wire that has a few caveats to keep them real and within the sailing ability of those who could afford to buy and sail them by virtue of full employment elsewhere.

I.E. If it fails the falling over test when left at the dock unsupported

Or if it fails the standard health and safety lifting weight for average workers in the workplace. (32 kgs) (64 for two isn't it, something like that anyway)

People get put off by lots of things y'all don't often consider, being able to lift them is one..


You're talking Tasar there sunshine, well 68kg.......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 1:54pm
Falling over at the dock has very little real world relevance to a 2 person boat.
 
one person holds the boat, the other deals with the trolley.
How hard that is bears little relation to whether the thing will fall over on its own.
 
Your displacement of 32kg combined with a useful waterline length means a narrow waterline beam is almost inevitable. Dial in the weight of a carbon mast and a sail or two and the CofG height is going to be considerable.
Better design it to sit happily on its side, supported by the rack and the top spreaders?
 
Or design a cat?
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