The downside are the windsurfer style rig, it's fully batterened, the hull is quite tippy to learn in and not suitable for new sailors.

It is a great little boat.

You poor boy

When will you learn what real dinghy racing is about?   I have been at regattas where there have been 300+ square 'boxy things' and the level of racing is, almost, second to none.

Dinghy racing is not a about pure speed, it's about skill which incorporates getting maximum speed out of your chosen boat but also boat handling, strategy and tactics which the 'square box' sailors seem to learn very well in such competitive fleets.

Maybe it's time for IGRF to move into high heels and something that doesn't his hair wet 

Missed the point again - proper racing 

It is now being made in grp in one form or other, a material that does not really work for large slab sided shapes unless some sort of foam core sandwich is employed but then you are just using an expensive technique on a shape that is that way because it was meant to be cheap. Not very logical is it?

The Bic uses modern materials in an efficient way to produce a modern shape. Seems logical to me.

Sounds like the only argument for Oppies is there's a lot of them out there, that of course is a valid argument but how long can it be used?

And yes the tipsiness thing, that square flat shape may be initially stable but it is not as nicely progressive into dynamic stability when heeled as a rounder shape with a bit of chine.

I say give youngsters some respect, they do know good design from poor. I mean most of them probably know the finer points of an iPad vs a Samsung for goodness sake.

the Laser is exactly the same problem

no progress = stagnation and a dying sport

 

There's at least as much progress in sailing as in boom sports like cycling or a very strong sport like golf, overall. And where is the evidence that technological progress in sports like football or cricket is faster than technological progress in sailing? Take a '70s Laser, Opti, Merlin, Mirror or Finn and compare it to the same boat or class in 2013 - there's normally been a vast improvement in blocks, sails, lines, wetsuits, hiking pants, boots, gloves and other stuff you can stick on even an old hull. I wouldn't be at all surprised is there had been about as much development in something like Lasers as there has been in cycling, for instance. The difference is that in some dinghies you are just renovating the existing hull rather than buying all new kit.

 

The fascinating thing is that in sailing the booming classes are normally the low-tech ones and the ones with fewer technological advances. It's not the Laser, X Boat and Opti that are fading, it's the faster boats like Ospreys, Hornets, 505s, Melges, L5000 etc and the development classes. Those of us who track the numbers seem pretty convinced that there is a shift AWAY from fast boats and the development classes that are "enjoying" technological progress. The interesting thing is that the shift has been so big and so long term that many people don't realise how much smaller they are today, as a section of the market, than they were decades ago when boats like the 5-0, Merlin and 'Ball were in the top few classes in the country in terms of national turnouts. 

 

The stats I'm working on seem pretty clear - the drop-off in numbers at national title level is mainly caused by the fall in performance ODs and development classes and in slow "family" boats at the other extreme. The Laser/Opti etc are not the culprits, they are the survivors to emulate.

 

If sailors want high tech then wouldn't the Melges 24, Moth, 12 foot Skiff, Formula Windsurfers and F16 cat be among the most popular classes in the country instead of dead or stagnant (with the exception of the Moth which did benefit from investors losing millions in a massive marketing campaign)?

 

If people want high tech then wouldn't unlimited air racing, hydroplanes, streamlined recumbent bicycles, rocket cars and kits that could turn swimmers into human torpedoes be the most popular bits of sporting kit? Instead swimming (most popular participant sport in the UK according to Sport England) has turned its back on technology and banned the speed suits. Cycling and gold (4th and 5th most popular, behind athletics and football) both state specifically in their rules that technology is limited so that weekend warriors can use the same gear as the legends.

 

Personally I'm a fan of the way the Bics run races and the concept in general although with some reservations about the hull. Optis are a new class 'round here and yet the kids love them. The Tera, meanwhile, seems to be a brilliant boat from the pics.

I agree that high tech is no guarantee of popularity but I would suggest efficient designs & construction methods combined with good ergonomics are worth pursuing.

By the way, I do think wood can be good and by no means am I down on all designs from days of yore. Lovin' and sailing two 60s designs myself.

Originally posted by Chris 249 "There's at least as much progress in sailing as in boom sports"

progress in terms of numbers of (particularly young) participants? 

How does it look if you aggregate some of the similar High Performance (HP) classes?

In the 80s & 90s there were few HP boats; the 505 & Fireball were the classes you sailed if you were a bit of a boyracer ... now we have many more classes following the late 90s and early 2000s proliferation of fast SMODs ...

I suspect the damage is more as a result of the HP fleets getting fragmented rather than sailors falling out of love with HP boats ...

How do you stats look of you look at the number of competitors in various bands of PY? That would be an interesting graph if you had the base data to hand ...

With respect (honestly) I think that you may be assuming (not for the first time) that others are being more simplistic and less thorough than they are.

I can't speak for Jim (although I suspect he shares many of these views) but I certainly don't believe that there are simplistic causal factors. Like you, I think that the reasons for the changes that we have seen are very complicated; the boats that we sail are influenced by matters as diverse as the width of an Austin A40 sedan and the property rights of the north-eastern USA. However, there do appear to be broad trends that are significant and understandable. A reduction in traditional performance one designs, followed in the UK by a revival once they were spurred to changes, may be one of those.

It is partly my belief that these things are so complex that leads me to post when I see things that I see (perhaps wrongly) as expressions of simple "make it faster/more high tech/etc and they will come" reasoning. As you say, there are many and complex factors, which is why I am interested in looking VERY wide abroad; the fact that I am so interested in the UK scene when I live on the other side of the world is an indication of that.

I completely agree that the lack of sensible dialogue is a massive problem. As we agree, the factors that influence sailing classes and their design and popularity are immensely complex. Perhaps because of the complexity of the sport, there doesn't seem to be the sort of knowledge of its history and trends that are seen in other sports, or at least the ones I do and in ones like cricket.

I haven't got the stats to hand, but I can recall working out the numbers and I'm pretty sure that the aggregated HP classes represented a smaller % of the total nationals fleet than they did decades ago. I've been meaning to put the graphs together properly but I've ended up spending my time putting more data in the spreadsheet.

One example of the development is that the average speed of the 10 most popular classes is now 0.5% slower than it was in the boomtime of the dinghies, about 1975. Of course it's not a precise measure because the base boats for the yardstick (420s, Solos whatever) are going faster as well. However it does indicate that there has been no big shift towards speed.

The fact that the sport dropped in popularity as soon as the speeds of the "big 10" classes peaked indicates to me that (as is known to happen in other sports) there may well have been a revenge effect. The initial boom came about because of factors such as the arrival of cheap, simple beginner's boats like the GP14. Those who got into the sport with GPs etc often then became more experienced and moved into 505s, etc - this was noted at the time. The problem is that a shift in accent towards faster boats and more experienced sailors, a natural product of a maturing sport in many ways, leads to reduced attention on the vital task of ensuring that new blood comes in and that classes for beginners stay strong and healthy.

Plenty of people inside the industry have also noted the same trend - when there are enough experienced and committed sailors around, those who are trying to make a buck end up concentrating on selling craft suited for the experienced sailors and the beginner's market dwindles. And we may also have been seeing a bit of a snobbish attitude in many quarters towards the beginner/family boats that could (IMHO) revitalise the sport by bringing in new blood. I suspect that this snobbery is fading in the same way that the snobbery towards the Holt etc ply boats faded 50 years ago.

With such complex matters there are no easy answers. However, when trends repeat across various branches of the sport and across different countries and eras, there does seem to be fairly good evidence that concentrating on high performance is harmful for overall health of the sport.

...

I completely agree that the lack of sensible dialogue is a massive problem. As we agree, the factors that influence sailing classes and their design and popularity are immensely complex. Perhaps because of the complexity of the sport, there doesn't seem to be the sort of knowledge of its history and trends that are seen in other sports, or at least the ones I do and in ones like cricket.

 

Cricket is an interesting comparison.

If you were inventing a sport from scratch, and hoping to make it popular in many areas of the world, would cricket be taken seriously?

 

The current situation is partly driven by history.

The rest of it is a complex balancing act between the benefits of change vs stability.

 

It's largely about the class associations. If they are organisations like the SMOD associations which grew very quickly mostly around a narrow demographic, they are likely to be more cyclical than an organisation that grows slowly and accumulates a wider demographic over the years.

 

one person holds the boat, the other deals with the trolley.

How hard that is bears little relation to whether the thing will fall over on its own.

 

Your displacement of 32kg combined with a useful waterline length means a narrow waterline beam is almost inevitable. Dial in the weight of a carbon mast and a sail or two and the CofG height is going to be considerable.

Better design it to sit happily on its side, supported by the rack and the top spreaders?

 

Or design a cat?

You're talking Tasar there sunshine, well 68kg.......

But fast and high performance* ISN'T difficult to use. Anyone can buy an old Hobie 20 and beat just about any dinghy to death while lounging around on the tramp with a beer. For some reason you abuse cats but they can be fantastic for what you want - and yet most people choose not to sail them because they prefer a different feel.

 

Fast and high performance in dinghies can be hard to use, but didn't your little experiment show that it's not as simple to create a fast-but-easy boat as you claim it is? Scows do hold a lot of potential but they have been widely accepted in most parts of the dinghy sailing world for decades, so it's not conservatism or Luddism that is holding them back.

 

You can actually create a high-performance monohull dinghy or skiff that can be used by typical club-level crews from 0-25 knots. The downside is that you need two masts and three sets of sails to cover the range, or a very long skinny hull, or big crew. And doesn't the RS800 come close to what you want?

 

Boards are not fast and simple, by the way. Try to find a board that can cover the wind range a good dinghy can cover, while being faster and/or easier to sail. Go to Boards mag's forum and see how many veteran windsurfers can't even do a basic move like a gybe without dropping off the plane.

 

You assume that a rig like a Radial's is inferior, but that's just from one viewpoint. I can be pretty unbiased here, IMHO, since I have had fully-battened roachy mains since the first boat I ever owned, and I still own boards and boats with both dacron pinheads and film full-battens, including one designed by Bethwaites.

 

A Radial rig is fast and simple to rig (I carry my club/training sails rolled around the mast), lasts longer at club/cruising level due to the dacron cloth, and is lighter for the cost. For some classes and sailors those are perfectly reasonable tradeoffs for the slight reduction in performance. If other sailors choose NOT to take those tradeoffs that's fine, as long as they respect those of us with different tastes or in different positions. It's not being a luddite, it's using what is fun. As Rupert said, people have very different tastes so why not respect that?

 

By the way, are you into modern alcopops instead of "oldskool" beer and wine? Are you into 21st C bit tunes and live coding rather than old man's guitar based rock? If you prefer the latter, are you a luddite or just someone who may not personally like some of the latest stuff?

 

I have Jack Knights' article about the IYRU 5m dinghy, but no scanner. It did look like an amazing boat for its day.

 

For example, if someone felt that speed and new classes attracted people then they should be able to show (for example) that "X" new catamaran classes have been launched recently, that performance therefore increased "Y", and that the number of people sailing cats increased "Z", or at least point to some trends or general indications about that. The stuff I can find (from diverse sources such as Australian cat regattas and the fluctuation in various types of Hobie in the USA) indicates no such trend.

 

It would be fascinating if you or someone with your views could scratch up some hard data so this discussion could be balanced by factual evidence from the "other side".

 

well its an apparently  reasonable challenge that you set and, perhaps I am wrong, but I think you are assuming I am arguing the "higher and faster is better for all" argument - I am not.  What I see is no more than what has been pointed out by others on this thread already that the dinghy sailing world suffers from a sort of over conservatism (small c) caused by the dominance of a few old classes (e.g. Laser, Oppie) that at some point (soon I hope or it will be too late for me) will inevitably have to be replaced by newer and better things.  The problem is that their huge numbers hold back development and improvement.  So I'm not quite sure what data could be used to measure this difference between the world we have and a conceptual world without such over-dominant classes.  It a bit like asking what would have happened if we had taken another wicket just before tea? we will never know.  

If this department developed a new radical craft and then allowed manufacturers to build it starting at a set date then introduced it to the pinnacle of the sport, the Olympics?

However....what price development? I was at the Goodwood Festival of Speed recently which, for those of you not familiar, is based around a 1.6 mile hill climb. Fastest car up the hill? A 1990 Group C V 12 Jaguar Sportscar. You know the ones, all covered in Silk Cut advertising (that trendy). It thrashed 6 current F1 cars. All the cars wait at the top until the end of the session when they can drive back down. Each F1 car needed a van load of technicians following them up to prepare them to descend. Not so the Jag.

Horses for courses.

We do need a pinnacle in our sport but we do not all have to be pinned on top of it.

 

(excepting of course that the long skis I had as a kid were faster)

Really,  you mean RS 100's...only 6? That makes me feel better.

The question about a divergence of classes has already been answered. To put it in numerical terms, there were about 108 British dinghy classes that had a Yardstick in 1961. Now there are 81.

Have you seen a Royal Dart 16 1/2 foot OD, Jollyboat, Pembroke Dinghy, Daring dinghy, or International Tornado (the dinghy not the cat) lately?  Half of the Primary Yardstick classes from '61 are dead. 

However, look again at the top 10 adult's boats in 1975; GP (226), Ent (200) 'Ball (175), Mirror (148), Laser (147), Merlin (132), 505 (130), N12 (130), Scorp (121) and Solo (limited to 120).

To get another perspective; since 2000 the total number of dinghies in the Y&Y nationals attendance table has been like this;

The number of boats of 'Ball speed or faster has run like this in the same period, starting with 2000;

The big builders have heavily promoted fast boats (4000s, Buzz, etc) but they have not met with long-term success. The progressive alternative HAS been offered, but it has been turned down by most in the market. The same occurred in Oz and the USA.

The success in the current market is in the slower, more user-friendly classes which is a good thing IMHO (although personally my background is often in very quick stuff).

*'Scuse any dodgy %s, it's getting late here.

wow what a long answer!  some of the information is really interesting (eg about 1975) - thanks.  As I said, I am not in the "faster = better" camp, so we are a bit at cross-purposes.  All I have time just now to say is that there will come a time to move on from 40-ish year-old designs.  I don't believe that dinghy sailing is doing very well as a sport and that change is both needed and inevitable.  If that is towards newer slow classes that give good close racing, then thats fine by me

Dave

 I think the bic open is good and the fevera is ok but these rota-moulded products are physically small and quite small boats. I am looking forward to the breakthrough in technology for a cheaply produced hull not to feel horrible.