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iGRF View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Aug 13 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by rodney

Whoops!  300 Bics at one event? I doubt it  Big smile   The 300 boxes I referred to were at a relatively small event in mainland Europe.  I have no idea how many you might get at a major event  Smile
Missed the point again - proper racing  LOL


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winging it View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 13 at 9:00pm
great boats, weigh a ton, need critical mass to achieve its full potential.  Some kids like the security of being in a box.
the same, but different...

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Do Different View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 13 at 9:23pm
The Oppie is a product of a set of parameters given the materials of the day. Cheap an' easy to build in plywood.

It is now being made in grp in one form or other, a material that does not really work for large slab sided shapes unless some sort of foam core sandwich is employed but then you are just using an expensive technique on a shape that is that way because it was meant to be cheap. Not very logical is it?

The Bic uses modern materials in an efficient way to produce a modern shape. Seems logical to me.

Sounds like the only argument for Oppies is there's a lot of them out there, that of course is a valid argument but how long can it be used?

And yes the tipsiness thing, that square flat shape may be initially stable but it is not as nicely progressive into dynamic stability when heeled as a rounder shape with a bit of chine.

I say give youngsters some respect, they do know good design from poor. I mean most of them probably know the finer points of an iPad vs a Samsung for goodness sake.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 13 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Sounds like the only argument for Oppies is there's a lot of them out there, that of course is a valid argument but how long can it be used?

the Laser is exactly the same problem

no progress = stagnation and a dying sport
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 7:47am
Originally posted by r2d2

Originally posted by Do Different

Sounds like the only argument for Oppies is there's a lot of them out there, that of course is a valid argument but how long can it be used?

the Laser is exactly the same problem

no progress = stagnation and a dying sport
What????
 
There's at least as much progress in sailing as in boom sports like cycling or a very strong sport like golf, overall. And where is the evidence that technological progress in sports like football or cricket is faster than technological progress in sailing? Take a '70s Laser, Opti, Merlin, Mirror or Finn and compare it to the same boat or class in 2013 - there's normally been a vast improvement in blocks, sails, lines, wetsuits, hiking pants, boots, gloves and other stuff you can stick on even an old hull. I wouldn't be at all surprised is there had been about as much development in something like Lasers as there has been in cycling, for instance. The difference is that in some dinghies you are just renovating the existing hull rather than buying all new kit.
 
The fascinating thing is that in sailing the booming classes are normally the low-tech ones and the ones with fewer technological advances. It's not the Laser, X Boat and Opti that are fading, it's the faster boats like Ospreys, Hornets, 505s, Melges, L5000 etc and the development classes. Those of us who track the numbers seem pretty convinced that there is a shift AWAY from fast boats and the development classes that are "enjoying" technological progress. The interesting thing is that the shift has been so big and so long term that many people don't realise how much smaller they are today, as a section of the market, than they were decades ago when boats like the 5-0, Merlin and 'Ball were in the top few classes in the country in terms of national turnouts. 
 
The stats I'm working on seem pretty clear - the drop-off in numbers at national title level is mainly caused by the fall in performance ODs and development classes and in slow "family" boats at the other extreme. The Laser/Opti etc are not the culprits, they are the survivors to emulate.
 
If sailors want high tech then wouldn't the Melges 24, Moth, 12 foot Skiff, Formula Windsurfers and F16 cat be among the most popular classes in the country instead of dead or stagnant (with the exception of the Moth which did benefit from investors losing millions in a massive marketing campaign)?
 
If people want high tech then wouldn't unlimited air racing, hydroplanes, streamlined recumbent bicycles, rocket cars and kits that could turn swimmers into human torpedoes be the most popular bits of sporting kit? Instead swimming (most popular participant sport in the UK according to Sport England) has turned its back on technology and banned the speed suits. Cycling and gold (4th and 5th most popular, behind athletics and football) both state specifically in their rules that technology is limited so that weekend warriors can use the same gear as the legends.
 
Personally I'm a fan of the way the Bics run races and the concept in general although with some reservations about the hull. Optis are a new class 'round here and yet the kids love them. The Tera, meanwhile, seems to be a brilliant boat from the pics.


Edited by Chris 249 - 07 Aug 13 at 8:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 8:18am
Interesting numbers Chris, not sure some of the examples you quote (Melges 24) but I take your point in general. I guess as enthusiasts we are often only really aware of our own bubble of interest. 

I agree that high tech is no guarantee of popularity but I would suggest efficient designs & construction methods combined with good ergonomics are worth pursuing.

By the way, I do think wood can be good and by no means am I down on all designs from days of yore. Lovin' and sailing two 60s designs myself.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 9:04am
It would be good to try an 'acid' test, line up a dozen Bics and a dozen Boxes, get a classroom of kids and tell them today we're going to learn sailing which of these would you like to use.

Then ask sail instructors the same question.

Sure enough at the end of the day the kids would get rammed into the boxes simply to preserve the status quo which is why things are the way they are and y'all are for the most part blinkered in the view that the way this sport is, is perfectly OK when anyone coming new to it just rolls their eyes again and again at the mess it's in.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 10:08am
Originally posted by Chris 249

"There's at least as much progress in sailing as in boom sports" 

- really?

progress in terms of numbers of (particularly young) participants? 


Edited by r2d2 - 07 Aug 13 at 10:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 10:13am
Originally posted by Chris 249

The stats I'm working on seem pretty clear - the drop-off in numbers at national title level is mainly caused by the fall in performance ODs and development classes and in slow "family" boats at the other extreme. The Laser/Opti etc are not the culprits, they are the survivors to emulate.


Exactly what I see as well: the sport is focussing on the middle. I'd have thought that the youngsters who did who did campaigns in 29ers from my club would be wanting to sail high performance boats, but with a few exceptions (hello Nicola) it just doesn't seem to be happening very much.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 10:39am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Chris 249

The stats I'm working on seem pretty clear - the drop-off in numbers at national title level is mainly caused by the fall in performance ODs and development classes and in slow "family" boats at the other extreme. The Laser/Opti etc are not the culprits, they are the survivors to emulate.


Exactly what I see as well: the sport is focussing on the middle. I'd have thought that the youngsters who did who did campaigns in 29ers from my club would be wanting to sail high performance boats, but with a few exceptions (hello Nicola) it just doesn't seem to be happening very much.

How does it look if you aggregate some of the similar High Performance (HP) classes?

In the 80s & 90s there were few HP boats; the 505 & Fireball were the classes you sailed if you were a bit of a boyracer ... now we have many more classes following the late 90s and early 2000s proliferation of fast SMODs ...

I suspect the damage is more as a result of the HP fleets getting fragmented rather than sailors falling out of love with HP boats ...

How do you stats look of you look at the number of competitors in various bands of PY? That would be an interesting graph if you had the base data to hand ...
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