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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Published Hull Weights
    Posted: 02 May 13 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by jeffers

 One thing we have at the moment is with the Solo. The new boats are clearly much faster than the older wooden boats and not just because they are new (sailors are upgrading boats and leaping up the fleet). Whether our learned sailing committee will do anything about this is unkown as I am not on it anymore. If it seems to become an issue I will raise it with them.

I guess when you've got boat built in a shed in the 70's using an old sail and a wooden spar set racing off the same average number as a boat in a completely different construction material by a completely different builder using mylar sails on matched masts, then you're going to have a larger standard deviation than something like a 300, where most of the hulls were built within a shorter window from the same mould, using identical rigs and foils.
  
Sounds to me like you've got a potential situation that could be resolved by a number split or construction split on PN if it really bothers the rest of the club members enough.   Of course, if the guys buying a new boat don't like your decisions then they could always join another club which races Solos in a proper fleet... they'd be most welcome.  Wink
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 13 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by JimC

If someone upgrades from a ratty old Solo with tired sails, out of date rig, grubby centreboard and scratched rudder to a new boat I see a 5 - 10% improvement in performance.
What I have never seen is what happens when someone upgrades from an immaculately prepared old wooden hull with a new rig and all the rest of it to a new Solo so the only variable is the hull construction.


Good grief I have agreed with Jim more than once in a few days!
I would think another big influence is the shiny new plastic Solo comes with everything set up properly and then gets rig settings copied from the top of the fleet.
It also concentrates the mind of the pilot....
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Posts: 64 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Caveman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 12:30am
 I do a few club handicap races in my Solo but find the way that the results work out somewhat unsatisfying. On a light day, I can sail badly and yet finish towards the front of the fleet. On a windier day, I can get the perfect start, sail my socks and end up with a result well down the fleet.

Winder and Boon FRP Solos have been around for several years. They are not a new phenomenon. They owe their growing popularity over wood boats, not to their speed but to fact that they will  tolerate being left in an exposed boat park all year rather better than wood boats.   

A new wood Solo from one of the top builders has a very similar performance to a new FRP Solo. The trouble is that, with only a handful being built each year, very few of us will even get to see a newish wood Solo let alone be able to compare its performance with an FRP boat. Frankly, most wood boats are getting on a bit. Even if they are immaculate, these older boats are less likely to be optimally set up with an up to date mast rake, laminate sail and smooth foils.  
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Posts: 23 		Post Options Post Options   Quote MrGin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 10:29am
In the Albacore Class, we have a minimum bare hull weight of 109Kg and and all up sailing weight of 136Kg, at championships we have weighed boats using both methods and found the same deviations.
The bare hull weight includes fitting, no CB or string.
 
Ovingtons are currently building about 25 boats a year (more than 470's worldwide), HAPCO in North America are also building about 10 a year.
 
The excellent Ovington Hulls are coming out about 95 to 97Kg which is excellent considering the amount of Gel coat thay use on the Epoxy Foam Core. By the time you have added the fitting you normally have to add a 2 to 5Kg of Lead to make up the 109Kg.
 
In the top ten at most you nationals you will have a combination of Ovington ERP, Speed FRP (circa 10 years old) and wooden boats built by Woof, Knight & Pink and Youngs. The wooden boats circa late 70's and 80's that you can pick up for between 2K to 4K, most are still down to weight.
 
Albacore's are know a One Design Hull were fittings are optional! ie fully raking rig so that 20 to 30 Stone crew weights as a competative as each other in most conditions.
 
When you buy a boat without a specified minimum weight, you in the hands of the gods!
 
Phil A8152 "Albaholic"
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 11:54am
Is "ERP" a typo or a really confused bit of terminology?
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Posts: 23 		Post Options Post Options   Quote MrGin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 12:29pm
FRP = Fibreglass Reinforced Plastic with polyester resin and foam core ie Speed, Porter, Ronder, HAPCO (current world championship hull)
ERP = Epoxy Reinforced Plastic with Fibreglass and foam core ie Ovington
GRP = Glass Reinforced plastic without core in olden days ie Fosrite Hulls
 
I'm easily confused!
Phil A8152 "Albaholic"
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 12:33pm
But in an Epoxy layup the epoxy isn't doing the re-inforcing, it is the plastic, so ERP makes no sense. Surely it is a typo? 
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 12:41pm
Yes, if GRP= glass reinforced plastic, by the same logic ERP is epoxy reinforced plastic, or plastic reinforced plastic!

I  think the problem is manufacturers attempting to distance their products from older tech.  Hence we've seen FRP used to mean not its original 'fibre reinforced plastic' (which would include GRP) but also 'foam reinforced plastic' (another nonsense).

Problem is we have no DIN norms in UK, or do The British Standards Institution lay down definitions?
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I luv Wight View Drop Down
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Posts: 628 		Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 12:43pm
can be solid (monolithic to give it a fancy name ) or with foam sandwich core:

FRP - fibre reinforced  plastic
GRP - glass ( fibre ) reinforced  plastic
CFRP - carbon fibre reinforced  plastic

solid plastic -  (polyproplylene probably ) eg Topper

Rotomould - plastic skins with foam core eg Pico, Vago. ( and Aero to give an edible example )

dunno 'bout ERP Confused


Edited by I luv Wight - 03 May 13 at 12:45pm

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Posts: 715 		Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 12:44pm
What's GRF then?













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