New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Published Hull Weights
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Published Hull Weights
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 910111213 24>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Published Hull Weights
    Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 3:04am
It's funny how the SMODs cop so much flak for weight difference when the "normal" OD classes show such enormous variation!
 
The Tasars are weighed at each title. The minimum weight rule was instituted about 17 years ago when Bethwaites reduced hull weight again after a new 'glass became available. That meant that the class down here in Oz had several different groups of boats. Those built '76/'77 weighed in around 64kg. Then problems with the impact strength of those hulls on English shingle beaches lead to an extra layer of 'glass being added, and weight increased to around 67-74.5kg (IIRC - there were other minor differences in batches). Then around 2000, the new layup came in and boats dropped down to around 65kg or so again.
 
A very large number of boats in the class were weighed and the weight limit of 68kg was arrived at because it was very close to the average of all boats that turned up to titles. I think that Julian prefers tougher boats so the new ones are about 67kg as they come off the line.
 
So in a SMOD in which the weight variations were (a) well known inside the class and (b) caused not just by production variation but by significant changes in lay-up like adding an entire extra layer of 'glass, the weight varied by only about 5kg either side of average - significantly LESS than the variation in the Phants and Streakers!
 
I did half of the second-last nationals before the weight limit came in. With one of the heaviest boats (73.5kg) we were fastest in the 76-boat fleet upwind in a breeze, lost 5 spots downwind when there was marginal planing, and averaged 3rd at the finish line.
 
That boat went on to win one of the first titles with the weight limit, in a 60-boat fleet. The speed difference in marginal planing/surfing conditions that had been so noticeable was pretty much erased when the weight difference dropped from about 10kg to 5.5kg, but it still wasn't as quick as the brand-new boat the skipper went on to sail.
 
So IMHO while weight DOES make a difference at the front end of the fleet, for the average sailor the effect of weight difference is completely swamped by the faults in their sailing technique. And, more importantly, there seems to be little if any evidence that SMODs are, as a whole, looser in minimum weight than "normal" one designs.
Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 3:12am
Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by Rupert

Why are the classes not "real", Paramedic?If more people are sailing them, more people buying them, doesn't that make "our" world the unreal one?



I think you've taken that comment slightly out of context ;)

The point was that as people learn more about sailing and how/why boats work they are likely to change class to one that offers better racing/stiffer hull/better performance to match changing aspirations.

I don't see any of the rotomould boats fitting the requirements of the enthusiastic racer with the obvious exception of the Feva for juniors.
I understand what you say, but apparently in the days when dinghy sailing was booming a minority (those who sailed N12s, MRs and 14s) were saying very similar things about the booming plywood classes like Ents and GPs. Beecher Moore noted that the early stages of the enormous growth in the sport happened OUTSIDE the traditional sailing centres, partly because the established clubs had the attitude that "those boxy things are not real boats".
 
The poly boats may be this century's version of the ply boats of the '50s and '60s - the breakthrough that, if accepted, could perhaps lead the sport back to growth despite the lower performance, reduced sail controls and other issues that they shared with the plywood classes that made the sport what it is today.
 
I AM biased, though, 'cause I sail a poly class as well as a single-skin SMOD, several sandwich hulls, a couple of timber development classes, etc. The poly hull flops around but like the ex-Olympians who sail the same class, I just accept that as part of the price of economy, durability and convenience in the same way that (say) sailors from hiking classes accept that they are slower than if they had a trap, or a soccer player accepts that they can't use their hands.   


Edited by Chris 249 - 23 Apr 13 at 5:09am
Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 3:19am
Originally posted by Thunder Road

I think you find a mast you like and keep it, two masts can be measured in at regattas but most people go with their favourite in all weathers and keep the other as a spare. The problem with two is the confusion with settings and getting caught out with weather changes on the water, better to know how to adjust the rig to suit the conditions. It is bad enough having to nurse a fragile lightweight sail round the course if the wind comes up without throwing an unsuitable mast at the problem as well. I made the mistake of selling my best mast years ago, thought I could do better, well I couldn't Cry
Why can't you just go out and buy another mast of the same type as your "best mast"????
 
 


Edited by Chris 249 - 23 Apr 13 at 5:10am
Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 3:32am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Surely the Finns have the best of all worlds - they can bimble to their heart's content, safe in the knowledge that important stuff like huge variations in hull weight is all being taken care of centrally.
It's up to the individual, surely?
 
I know some people who would find such a class the worst of both worlds - they'd have to build a boat three times as heavy as they'd like, and considerably slower than they could, then still have to go out and buy an expensive rig and be aware that someone else could design a faster rig next week.
 
Of course that doesn't mean that the Finn isn't a fantastic class - the point is that surely there are very different approaches to class rules that can each be completely valid.
 
Personally, while I understand the appeal of the "normal" OD model (Finn, 505, etc) to others, it has little appeal to me because I don't enjoy the prospect of having standardised hulls and then having someone else go out, spend a lot of time and money with a sailmaker developing new sails, and then getting an edge. But to others that is a fascinating challenge, and good on them.
 
I stick with SMODs at one extreme and very loose classes at the other. Having sailed some extremely loose classes I do find it odd when people from "normal" OD classes attack the SMOD model for being too tight; it's like a pot that's extremely dark gray abusing the kettle for being black, while ignoring the shiny other parts of the spectrum. But surely there is no  "better" or "worse" style of class rules - just different options that suit different circumstances and tastes.


Edited by Chris 249 - 23 Apr 13 at 5:16am
Back to Top
RS400atC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Dec 08
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 8:21am
So long as you know where you stand with the rules.
That's why I find it interesting the way new classes like the iCon are founded.
I  think the Finn is not your normal OD class, Contender would be a better example, you can buy the latest and best off the peg.
Most OD's are very sorted building boats to min weight.
I can't imagine anyone buying a new overweight Fireball or Ent or even a Wayfarer unless it was for a sailing school.
Back to Top
Thunder Road View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 24 Jun 10
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 372 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Thunder Road Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 8:28am
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Thunder Road

I think you find a mast you like and keep it, two masts can be measured in at regattas but most people go with their favourite in all weathers and keep the other as a spare. The problem with two is the confusion with settings and getting caught out with weather changes on the water, better to know how to adjust the rig to suit the conditions. It is bad enough having to nurse a fragile lightweight sail round the course if the wind comes up without throwing an unsuitable mast at the problem as well. I made the mistake of selling my best mast years ago, thought I could do better, well I couldn't Cry
Why can't you just go out and buy another mast of the same type as your "best mast"????
 
 
I did but it didn't feel the same, static tests and measurements only take you so far, a mast is a moving , flexing dynamic piece of kit. All the Finn mast set up devices from a tape measure through to an electronic spring balance only give you a fixed point and can't mimic what happens in waves, the effect of the next flex before the previous one has recovered and their inter action, etc, I guess if you are into that sort of thing it is feel but it's really just very complex physics and makes Finn sailing a way of life rather than just sailboat racing.
Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.
Back to Top
Thunder Road View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 24 Jun 10
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 372 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Thunder Road Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 8:34am
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Thunder Road

£15K should bring you a new state of the art piece of Finn kit, but this level of consistency should be available in all classes, surely this level of engineering is not an unreasonable ambition for any boat since the dug out canoe stopped being the norm. It is a case of pride and controlled workmanship & engineering.


Originally posted by scotsfinn

I'd agree with TR and disagree with Jim C. The pleasure of a Finn is that the rules are so well controlled that most owners, who are not of course Olympians, can enjoy really close competion in a variety of ages of boats knowing they are as close in terms of weights and balance as any class in the world. Even better they get a great mag telling what is happening, but really never have to get involved in class politics. In my view the Finn Class should be a model for all ......... That should extract a few more posts I'll bet .... Wink


All very laudable, right up until the bit where they hang a bit of old lancaster bomber wing down the middle of it, with the foil shape ground out of it to fit in the slot... Oh and to double the weight by the sound of it.
I guess that is like playing rugby in the front 5 of a scrum, you have to experience it to understand it, can I make arrangements for you? Wink
Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.
Back to Top
Medway Maniac View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 9:04am
Originally posted by Chris 249

 there seems to be little if any evidence that SMODs are, as a whole, looser in minimum weight than "normal" one designs.

You say this at the end of a long post in which the only SMOD example you quote is a class controlled by the meticulously scientific Frank Bethwaite.  Hardly a typical SMOD alongside the produce of one of the big SMOD manufacturers such as Laser.

The quote from me extolling the Finn situation was taken out of context.  I was not saying I thought that the Finn was the perfect boat - I'm 65 kg for goodness sake  Smile   My implication was that their system of weight management gets them more openly-fair racing than is had by the anal masses who sacrifice sailing and bimbling pleasures and go out and buy a cheap SMOD in the mistaken belief that they are at least all identical and give fair racing.

I have good reason to suspect that the tolerance stated in the construction manual for Laser hulls is or at least was around  +/- 10%  That would be significant in marginal planing conditions - certainly more so than the example I quoted about moving a ratchet block from the hull to the boom on an L2k, something which would cost nothing, take 5 minutes to do and would do a lot enhance my sailing experience in the boat, yet is not allowed because it might give me an 'unfair advantage'.  That, to me, is a huge irony.
Wilsonian SC
3000 Class
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Thunder Road

I guess that is like playing rugby in the front 5 of a scrum, you have to experience it to understand it, can I make arrangements for you? Wink


Only if I get to take communal baths with naked men, what is it they do to small boys again which rhymes with rugger?
Back to Top
Noah View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Dec 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 10:12am
Originally posted by RS400atC

So long as you know where you stand with the rules.
That's why I find it interesting the way new classes like the iCon are founded.
I  think the Finn is not your normal OD class, Contender would be a better example, you can buy the latest and best off the peg.
Most OD's are very sorted building boats to min weight.
I can't imagine anyone buying a new overweight Fireball or Ent or even a Wayfarer unless it was for a sailing school.


Fireball --> Sailing School. Now that would be worth a watch Wink

One of the aspects I found myself surprised at was the Finn 'swing' test, because it was the ability to get weight out of the ends which made the ubiquitous White Winder so successful in the Fireball class. If that's the way the Finns want to maintain their level playing field then good for them. If you don't like the rules - don't join the club.


Edited by Noah - 23 Apr 13 at 10:13am
Nick
D-Zero 316

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 910111213 24>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy