New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: how much mark room
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

how much mark room

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Reuben T View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 13
Location: Lyme Regis
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 74
Post Options Post Options   Quote Reuben  T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: how much mark room
    Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 8:03pm
Once you have established the right to water around a mark from which to head back upwind, how wide are you allowed to push the boat who is giving room in order to get a better mark rounding. I believe the rules say that you must be able to make a seamanlike manoeuvre, but what does this constitute. Today I was in this situation and the outside boat gave me less than 10 cm clearance from the mark, meaning that I was about 2 boat lengths away from the mark by the time I had hardener up fully. I wouldn't consider this seamanlike, even though I didn't touch the mark. Where is the line drawn.
Back to Top
Neptune View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 08 Jun 09
Location: Berkshire United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1314
Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 9:18pm
That sounds sea man like to me, rule does not say racing ideal rounding!
Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
Back to Top
Presuming Ed View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 26 Feb 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 641
Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 9:48pm
Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,
(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and
(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.
However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room and she would be fetching the mark after her tack. 

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

Have to wait for the new case book & see what they've done to case 21, but to me, seamanlike would be sticking your helm down to luff as hard as is consistent with maintaining good speed at the mark. 10 cm sounds awful close. 
Back to Top
gordon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1037
Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 10:20pm
I presume that you were windward boat throughout the rounding?

Gordon
Gordon
Back to Top
Reuben T View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 13
Location: Lyme Regis
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 74
Post Options Post Options   Quote Reuben  T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 10:24pm
But in my opinion only a beginner rams the helm over as far as it goes during a normal mark rounding, therefore the actions that I was forced to take were not 'indicating competent seamanship'(see definition). 

seamanlike - characteristic of or befitting a seaman; indicating competent seamanship


"(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course."
in being forced so close to the mark I was made to sail far below the corse round the mark, therefore was I not made unable to 'sail the course'.
Back to Top
Reuben T View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 13
Location: Lyme Regis
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 74
Post Options Post Options   Quote Reuben  T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 10:25pm
I was in this case the windward boat

Back to Top
Quagers View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 24 Oct 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 279
Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 10:58pm
Seamanlike is quite often taken to mean manoeuvres which do not endanger the craft or its crew. Steering hard over to avoid a collision with a boat you are required to keep clear of is seamanlike. Even if it isn't, as a racer, what you would like to do. 

*Anyone know why this is here, I can't edit it away?? =>>
< id="adlesse_unifier_magic_element_id" style="display:none;">

Edited by Quagers - 31 Mar 13 at 11:01pm
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 13 at 1:13am
The discussion in the 2005-2009 Case 21 may be helpful

CASE 21

Rule 18 Preamble
Rule 18.2(a), Rounding and Passing Marks and Obstructions:
Overlapped – Basic Rule
Definitions, Room

The extent of the room that an outside right-of-way boat must
give at a mark or obstruction depends on the existing
conditions.

Question

What is the maximum amount of room an inside boat without right of way
is entitled to take in rounding or passing a mark or obstruction? What is the minimum amount that the outside boat is required to give?

Answer

The possible answers vary widely. To suggest the extremes, they might be:
1. as a minimum, enough room with sails and spars sheeted inboard for
the hull to clear by centimetres both the outside boat and the mark or
obstruction;
2. as a maximum, all the room the inside boat takes, setting her course as far abeam of the mark as she wishes.

Neither is correct.

As the definition Room and the preamble to rule 18 state, the word
‘room’ in rule 18 means the space needed by an inside boat, which in the
existing conditions is handled in a seamanlike way, to round or pass
promptly between the outside boat and the mark or obstruction, including
room to tack or gybe when either is a normal part of the manoeuvre.
The term ‘existing conditions’ deserves some consideration. For
example, the inside one of two dinghies approaching a mark on a placid
lake in light air will need relatively little space beyond that required for her hull and properly trimmed sails. At the other extreme, when two keel boats, on open water with steep seas, are approaching a mark that is being tossed about widely and unpredictably, the inside boat may need a full hull length of room or even more to ensure safety.

The phrase ‘in a seamanlike way’ applies to both boats. First, it
addresses the outside boat, saying that she must provide enough room so
that the inside boat need not make extraordinary or abnormal manoeuvres
to keep clear of her and the mark. It also addresses the inside boat. She is not entitled to complain of insufficient room if she fails to execute with reasonable efficiency the handling of her helm, sheets and sails during a rounding.
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Online
Posts: 6662
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 13 at 5:49am
I'd like to know wind and wave conditions.

On a lake with flat water and light airs, ghosting round a soft inflatable mark then 10cm sounds OK. OTOH if its at sea, roundng a very solid steel mark in a 4 ft swell and 25knots of breeze, I think a couple of metres would be more appropriate.

Hmm, having written that I note the case says almost exactly the same thing!

I think pass promptly is the key phrase, which to me implies faster and tighter than you would like to do in the absence of other boats.
Back to Top
Reuben T View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 13
Location: Lyme Regis
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 74
Post Options Post Options   Quote Reuben  T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 13 at 10:30am
the bit that interests me is   'she must provide enough room so that the inside boat need not make extraordinary or abnormal manoeuvres '

what is the definition of an abnormal or extraordinary manoeuvre?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy