Racing Rules: how much mark room

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how much mark room

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Forum Name: Racing Rules
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Topic: how much mark room

Posted By: Reuben T
Subject: how much mark room
Date Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 8:03pm

Once you have established the right to water around a mark from which to head back upwind, how wide are you allowed to push the boat who is giving room in order to get a better mark rounding. I believe the rules say that you must be able to make a seamanlike manoeuvre, but what does this constitute. Today I was in this situation and the outside boat gave me less than 10 cm clearance from the mark, meaning that I was about 2 boat lengths away from the mark by the time I had hardener up fully. I wouldn't consider this seamanlike, even though I didn't touch the mark. Where is the line drawn.

Replies:

Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 9:18pm

That sounds sea man like to me, rule does not say racing ideal rounding!

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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor

Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 9:48pm

Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,

(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and

(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.

However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room and she would be fetching the mark after her tack.

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

Have to wait for the new case book & see what they've done to case 21, but to me, seamanlike would be sticking your helm down to luff as hard as is consistent with maintaining good speed at the mark. 10 cm sounds awful close.

Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 10:20pm

I presume that you were windward boat throughout the rounding?

Gordon

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Gordon

Posted By: Reuben T
Date Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 10:24pm

But in my opinion only a beginner rams the helm over as far as it goes during a normal mark rounding, therefore the actions that I was forced to take were not 'indicating competent seamanship'(see definition).

seamanlike - characteristic of or befitting a seaman; indicating competent seamanship

"(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course."

in being forced so close to the mark I was made to sail far below the corse round the mark, therefore was I not made unable to 'sail the course'.

Posted By: Reuben T
Date Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 10:25pm

I was in this case the windward boat

Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 10:58pm

Seamanlike is quite often taken to mean manoeuvres which do not endanger the craft or its crew. Steering hard over to avoid a collision with a boat you are required to keep clear of is seamanlike. Even if it isn't, as a racer, what you would like to do.

*Anyone know why this is here, I can't edit it away?? =>>

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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 01 Apr 13 at 1:13am

The discussion in the 2005-2009 Case 21 may be helpful

CASE 21

Rule 18 Preamble
Rule 18.2(a), Rounding and Passing Marks and Obstructions:
Overlapped – Basic Rule
Definitions, Room

The extent of the room that an outside right-of-way boat must
give at a mark or obstruction depends on the existing
conditions.

Question

What is the maximum amount of room an inside boat without right of way
is entitled to take in rounding or passing a mark or obstruction? What is the minimum amount that the outside boat is required to give?

Answer

The possible answers vary widely. To suggest the extremes, they might be:
1. as a minimum, enough room with sails and spars sheeted inboard for
the hull to clear by centimetres both the outside boat and the mark or
obstruction;
2. as a maximum, all the room the inside boat takes, setting her course as far abeam of the mark as she wishes.

Neither is correct.

As the definition Room and the preamble to rule 18 state, the word
‘room’ in rule 18 means the space needed by an inside boat, which in the
existing conditions is handled in a seamanlike way, to round or pass
promptly between the outside boat and the mark or obstruction, including
room to tack or gybe when either is a normal part of the manoeuvre.
The term ‘existing conditions’ deserves some consideration. For
example, the inside one of two dinghies approaching a mark on a placid
lake in light air will need relatively little space beyond that required for her hull and properly trimmed sails. At the other extreme, when two keel boats, on open water with steep seas, are approaching a mark that is being tossed about widely and unpredictably, the inside boat may need a full hull length of room or even more to ensure safety.

The phrase ‘in a seamanlike way’ applies to both boats. First, it
addresses the outside boat, saying that she must provide enough room so
that the inside boat need not make extraordinary or abnormal manoeuvres
to keep clear of her and the mark. It also addresses the inside boat. She is not entitled to complain of insufficient room if she fails to execute with reasonable efficiency the handling of her helm, sheets and sails during a rounding.

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Apr 13 at 5:49am

I'd like to know wind and wave conditions.

On a lake with flat water and light airs, ghosting round a soft inflatable mark then 10cm sounds OK. OTOH if its at sea, roundng a very solid steel mark in a 4 ft swell and 25knots of breeze, I think a couple of metres would be more appropriate.

Hmm, having written that I note the case says almost exactly the same thing!

I think pass promptly is the key phrase, which to me implies faster and tighter than you would like to do in the absence of other boats.

Posted By: Reuben T
Date Posted: 01 Apr 13 at 10:30am

the bit that interests me is 'she must provide enough room so that the inside boat need not make extraordinary or abnormal manoeuvres '

what is the definition of an abnormal or extraordinary manoeuvre?

Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 01 Apr 13 at 10:42am

From the introduction to the RRS.

Terminology A term used in the sense stated in the Definitions is printed in italics or, in preambles, in bold italics (for example, racing and racing). ‘Racing rule’ means a rule in The Racing Rules of Sailing. ‘Boat’ means a sailboat and the crew on board; ‘vessel’ means any boat or ship. ‘Race committee’ includes any person or committee performing a race committee function. A ‘change’ to a rule includes an addition to it or deletion of all or part of it. ‘National authority’ means an ISAF member national authority. Other words and terms are used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use. (My emphasis)

So abnormal or extraordinary is.... just that, really. (Given the proviso that you get no extra room for crew inexperience. See ISAF case 103. )