Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
![]() |
Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
![]() |
List classes of boat for sale |
how much mark room |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page 12> |
Author | |
Reuben T ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 13 Location: Lyme Regis Online Status: Offline Posts: 74 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 8:03pm |
Once you have established the right to water around a mark from which to head back upwind, how wide are you allowed to push the boat who is giving room in order to get a better mark rounding. I believe the rules say that you must be able to make a seamanlike manoeuvre, but what does this constitute. Today I was in this situation and the outside boat gave me less than 10 cm clearance from the mark, meaning that I was about 2 boat lengths away from the mark by the time I had hardener up fully. I wouldn't consider this seamanlike, even though I didn't touch the mark. Where is the line drawn.
|
|
![]() |
|
Neptune ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 08 Jun 09 Location: Berkshire United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
That sounds sea man like to me, rule does not say racing ideal rounding!
|
|
Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
|
|
![]() |
|
Presuming Ed ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 641 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also, (a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and (b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course. However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room and she would be fetching the mark after her tack. Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way. Have to wait for the new case book & see what they've done to case 21, but to me, seamanlike would be sticking your helm down to luff as hard as is consistent with maintaining good speed at the mark. 10 cm sounds awful close.
|
|
![]() |
|
gordon ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I presume that you were windward boat throughout the rounding?
Gordon |
|
Gordon
|
|
![]() |
|
Reuben T ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 13 Location: Lyme Regis Online Status: Offline Posts: 74 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
But in my opinion only a beginner rams the helm over as far as it goes during a normal mark rounding, therefore the actions that I was forced to take were not 'indicating competent seamanship'(see definition). seamanlike - characteristic of or befitting a seaman; indicating competent seamanship "(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course." in being forced so close to the mark I was made to sail far below the corse round the mark, therefore was I not made unable to 'sail the course'. |
|
![]() |
|
Reuben T ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 13 Location: Lyme Regis Online Status: Offline Posts: 74 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I was in this case the windward boat
|
|
![]() |
|
Quagers ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 24 Oct 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 279 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Seamanlike is quite often taken to mean manoeuvres which do not endanger the craft or its crew. Steering hard over to avoid a collision with a boat you are required to keep clear of is seamanlike. Even if it isn't, as a racer, what you would like to do.
*Anyone know why this is here, I can't edit it away?? =>>
< id="adlesse_unifier_magic_element_id" style="display:none;">Edited by Quagers - 31 Mar 13 at 11:01pm |
|
![]() |
|
Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
The discussion in the 2005-2009 Case 21 may be helpful
CASE 21 Rule 18 Preamble Rule 18.2(a), Rounding and Passing Marks and Obstructions: Overlapped – Basic Rule Definitions, Room The extent of the room that an outside right-of-way boat must give at a mark or obstruction depends on the existing conditions. Question What is the maximum amount of room an inside boat without right of way is entitled to take in rounding or passing a mark or obstruction? What is the minimum amount that the outside boat is required to give? Answer The possible answers vary widely. To suggest the extremes, they might be: 1. as a minimum, enough room with sails and spars sheeted inboard for the hull to clear by centimetres both the outside boat and the mark or obstruction; 2. as a maximum, all the room the inside boat takes, setting her course as far abeam of the mark as she wishes. Neither is correct. As the definition Room and the preamble to rule 18 state, the word ‘room’ in rule 18 means the space needed by an inside boat, which in the existing conditions is handled in a seamanlike way, to round or pass promptly between the outside boat and the mark or obstruction, including room to tack or gybe when either is a normal part of the manoeuvre. The term ‘existing conditions’ deserves some consideration. For example, the inside one of two dinghies approaching a mark on a placid lake in light air will need relatively little space beyond that required for her hull and properly trimmed sails. At the other extreme, when two keel boats, on open water with steep seas, are approaching a mark that is being tossed about widely and unpredictably, the inside boat may need a full hull length of room or even more to ensure safety. The phrase ‘in a seamanlike way’ applies to both boats. First, it addresses the outside boat, saying that she must provide enough room so that the inside boat need not make extraordinary or abnormal manoeuvres to keep clear of her and the mark. It also addresses the inside boat. She is not entitled to complain of insufficient room if she fails to execute with reasonable efficiency the handling of her helm, sheets and sails during a rounding. |
|
![]() |
|
JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I'd like to know wind and wave conditions.
On a lake with flat water and light airs, ghosting round a soft inflatable mark then 10cm sounds OK. OTOH if its at sea, roundng a very solid steel mark in a 4 ft swell and 25knots of breeze, I think a couple of metres would be more appropriate. Hmm, having written that I note the case says almost exactly the same thing! I think pass promptly is the key phrase, which to me implies faster and tighter than you would like to do in the absence of other boats. |
|
![]() |
|
Reuben T ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 13 Location: Lyme Regis Online Status: Offline Posts: 74 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
the bit that interests me is 'she must provide enough room so that the inside boat need not make extraordinary or abnormal manoeuvres '
what is the definition of an abnormal or extraordinary manoeuvre?
|
|
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page 12> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |