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Rules and The Line.;

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Poll Question: Has 'the line' been crossed by events at the Sailjuice Series
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
37 [82.22%]
8 [17.78%]
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rules and The Line.;
    Posted: 26 Feb 13 at 10:39am
I've tried to steer clear of the chatter surrounding the alleged rules infringement and 'cheating' allegations in the various threads concerning the recent Sailjuice series.

Over the years there have been many 'lines' that have since been redrawn. Time was, there was absolutely no advertising on boats or boards, that conflicted with sponsors and was eventually changed. Sponsorship money had to be 'laundered' by the RYA, it was a dispute about this that changed my decision about Olympic participation back in the 80's, not something i regret I might add, but ironic what happens these days nonetheless.

Then there was pumping and where that took us, pretty much decimated our racing as it turned out but seemed like a good idea at the time, the rule relaxation since it couldn't be policed, I hadn't spotted until this Olympics that it's probably how Sir Ben has made his name and forged a technique can't be that many folk wanting to heave ho an ancient old tub like a Finn about. Wink

But back to being serious, I deliberately set this poll up as a yes no answer, there could have been a 'don't care' option, so if you don't just don't vote. I wondered how serious this latest apparently minor infringement is in peoples minds.

Personally I've always been of the rebellious view that rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools, but, if we don't have them then how can you make a choice wether to attempt to break them and get away with it or not. So they should be enforced if we get caught, or, the thrill of pushing the limit wouldn't be there, putting the rule breakers point of view in the frame as agent provocateur to make the point.

There is however and always has been a large number of decent rule observing folk that want the rules and don't like the softening attitudes, the constant slide to dumbing down in order to accommodate this or that commercial pressure.

Then of course there are those that don't know all the rules yet or understand why they are or were there in the first place, so wont necessarily know or mind if they do slip now and then, so I guess it really does get down to a yes or no.

Rules is rules we want them and they must be adhered to or changed through due process.

or No, it doesn't matter if they get minor infringements if no harm is done.

There really can't be a grey area can there?

So yes or no, in this case, has a line really been crossed?


Edited by G.R.F. - 26 Feb 13 at 10:41am
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 13 at 10:54am
It's odd, before the discussions (and they are discussions, not arguments) over the rule infringements, I would have probably voted 'no'.  But several things have changed my view, not least of all when fellow full RRP paying sailors find they don't want to participate in the sailing they previously loved because of the lack of rules enforcement.

I accept that there are official channels, but protesting is not an easy answer.  Only the other day Rodney joked about a protest levy at the FOM - a round of drinks.  A well spirited comment, but quite representative of our general attitudes towards protesting, the hassle factor of it and the label one would inherently be tagged with if s/he protested someone- especially on grounds of principle rather than championship winning stakes.  This forum provides us all with a chance to learn... I'll certainly adapt my attitude towards protesting, or at the very least, those who do the protesting in the future.    

I saw a post on the Solo website forum where the class officers were explaining why they adopted a hard line at the Winter Champs on bringing measurement certs along or no racing.  Like you, I would probably have scoffed at that; words like 'anal', 'zealous' etc make good inflammatory forum prattle and fit with a facade of rebelliousness.  But when you read the rationale of the officers it becomes abundantly clear they are doing the right thing, forced into it by those doing the wrong thing, and I can only applaud them for having the courage to stand by the class rules and what we've all signed up to.
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 13 at 11:07am
Well the other salient points are obviously that crossing 'the line' only becomes apparent if you win, I wonder if you took every boat that took part in that event and scrutineered it, just how many would comply with their class rules.

So the obvious answer is some 'waiver' procedure that can be implemented to insure events organisers against the 'wrong' sort of publicity. It's hardly a great thank you to the sail juice people to have their name and 'cheating accusations' associated is it?

If I were the sponsor and it were one of my brands, I wouldn't be happy.

Oh and it comes to something to have anything 'Solo' lauded as the 'right' thing to do. Confused


Edited by G.R.F. - 26 Feb 13 at 11:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 13 at 11:11am
I had the idea of a poll for this issue earlier but quite honestly I couldn't be bothered, I became fed up with the whole handicap deal some while ago.

Thinking about it though I would have asked slightly different questions:-

Has the sailjuice series and all the  associated shenanigans (Merlins and furballs etc.) in your opinion had a overall positive or negative effect on the image of hadicap racing.........Personally I would say negative.   


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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 13 at 11:20am
Handicap racing is all there is for a lot of us, hence why tempers do fray in the face of Bandits especially those that delude themselves that somehow their sailing prowess has increased ten fold as a result of a different boat.

And it's doubly a problem when despite all the craft there are, there aint exactly a surplus of good examples of desirable modern products to purchase so the choice is either sail something you like and put up with bad racing, or get good racing and put up with a crock of ess aich one tee.

Has this done any damage, only by the organisers actually tinkering with the handicaps and moving the goal posts ridiculously in order to gain more entries. You can't mess with a system the way they do, we've done the discussion, but the whole handicap system is screwed for the lack of a median accepted null point.

I'll be up at the dinghy show, 4 of us and only one of us will probably even know there has been an event, most folk are oblivious to all this.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 13 at 11:21am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

...joked about a protest levy at the FOM - a round of drinks.  A well spirited comment, but...

Yep, if we have a problem with rule observance in the sport that sort of attitude is surely part of the problem.

Struck it again recently, when the attitude of an RO on receiving a protest was to regard it as a nuisance. I think if we are running an event we should be encouraging protests and regarding them as a challenge to see how efficiently we can process them...

But its not easy when you don't have them regularly. OK at a worlds of an International Class an IJ is a (reluctantly) accepted expense so you have a ready made PC sitting around doing nothing waiting to burst into action, but at a club event where you probably need all the volunteers you can get in action you don't have that luxury.

I did like the AI they had at the Olympics where the IJ had the option of a lesser penalty than DSQ. I had a protest recently where the claim was that boat B, whilst gybing and passing behind boat A, had just brushed boat A's rudder. Boat A had felt the touch on the rudder, Boat B had, unsuprisingly, not felt anything. DSQ of B was harsh, but under our SIs unavoidable.

On the other hand I can see the option for a lesser penalty being readily abused by a club PC who are naturally anxious not to upset their clubmates. The arbitration process is a good idea, but I for one would be uncomfortable at being sole arbitrator of a hearing: its is really helpful to have two more people with different views to you looking over the evidence...

I don't have any good answers, maybe someone else does...

Edited by JimC - 26 Feb 13 at 11:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 13 at 11:23am
I totally understand where you're coming from Transient, but realistically, if I didn't read this forum, I wouldn't know anything about this "issue".
 
Just because something is discussed at length on here, by at best 2 dozen people, it doesn't mean that the other 900 or so people that competed in the SailJuice series know, or even care about it.
 
Yes, there appears to have been an issue, yes, a similar one occured a couple of years ago, but IMHO it makes little or no difference to the "average" sailor that wants to compete in these events.
 
I voted that YES, a line has been crossed, but not by the vast majority of competitors, not by the organisers of the individual events, and not by SailJuice.  If a protest was lodged and not dealt with correctly then yes, there would be questions in my mind, but that hasn't happened, and most of the passionate objections on here have been from people that didn't even attend.


Edited by Bootscooter - 26 Feb 13 at 11:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gbr940 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 13 at 11:31am
 JimC - with your example, boat B could have retired before the hearing and not received the DSQ (it would have been a tough one to defend being keep clear boat) but that's just an experience thing I guess and knowing the process of a protest.
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2547 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 13 at 11:39am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools

Trouble is that many who consider themselves as wise are in fact fools ... we don't have to look hard for an example  Wink

So given that I support the hard line ... but with a range of punishments ... from a minor "fine" for the RNLI to DSQ.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 13 at 11:41am
I answered yes.
 
I'm generally one for probing rules as I don't think they can ever be black and white, because human ingenuity will always find a way of making them fuzzy.
 
I used phrase "the line" in my last post on the Stevie Nick thread, because although I think it is nebulous, it does describe and represent the collective view of people to whom the rule impacts, both participants and spectators. On the whole the collective view is quite accommodating of genuine mistakes, understandable mis-interpretations etc and quite good at sniffing out what is blatantly not in the spirit of the rules. Getting a feel for the collective view can be quite difficult and although a forum can have many faults, the collective view can manifest itself here better than many other places I could care to mention. People don't like individual confrontation and shy away from protests (I know I'm guilty of that), whereas the forums can allow people to express views more easily.
 
That's why I think the discussion on "the line" with regard to the the sailjuice series should be taken much more seriously by the people/organisations involved.
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