Over the years there have been many 'lines' that have since been redrawn. Time was, there was absolutely no advertising on boats or boards, that conflicted with sponsors and was eventually changed. Sponsorship money had to be 'laundered' by the RYA, it was a dispute about this that changed my decision about Olympic participation back in the 80's, not something i regret I might add, but ironic what happens these days nonetheless.

Then there was pumping and where that took us, pretty much decimated our racing as it turned out but seemed like a good idea at the time, the rule relaxation since it couldn't be policed, I hadn't spotted until this Olympics that it's probably how Sir Ben has made his name and forged a technique can't be that many folk wanting to heave ho an ancient old tub like a Finn about.

But back to being serious, I deliberately set this poll up as a yes no answer, there could have been a 'don't care' option, so if you don't just don't vote. I wondered how serious this latest apparently minor infringement is in peoples minds.

Personally I've always been of the rebellious view that rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools, but, if we don't have them then how can you make a choice wether to attempt to break them and get away with it or not. So they should be enforced if we get caught, or, the thrill of pushing the limit wouldn't be there, putting the rule breakers point of view in the frame as agent provocateur to make the point.

There is however and always has been a large number of decent rule observing folk that want the rules and don't like the softening attitudes, the constant slide to dumbing down in order to accommodate this or that commercial pressure.

Then of course there are those that don't know all the rules yet or understand why they are or were there in the first place, so wont necessarily know or mind if they do slip now and then, so I guess it really does get down to a yes or no.

Rules is rules we want them and they must be adhered to or changed through due process.

or No, it doesn't matter if they get minor infringements if no harm is done.

There really can't be a grey area can there?

So yes or no, in this case, has a line really been crossed?

I accept that there are official channels, but protesting is not an easy answer.  Only the other day Rodney joked about a protest levy at the FOM - a round of drinks.  A well spirited comment, but quite representative of our general attitudes towards protesting, the hassle factor of it and the label one would inherently be tagged with if s/he protested someone- especially on grounds of principle rather than championship winning stakes.  This forum provides us all with a chance to learn... I'll certainly adapt my attitude towards protesting, or at the very least, those who do the protesting in the future.    

So the obvious answer is some 'waiver' procedure that can be implemented to insure events organisers against the 'wrong' sort of publicity. It's hardly a great thank you to the sail juice people to have their name and 'cheating accusations' associated is it?

If I were the sponsor and it were one of my brands, I wouldn't be happy.

Oh and it comes to something to have anything 'Solo' lauded as the 'right' thing to do.

Thinking about it though I would have asked slightly different questions:-

Has the sailjuice series and all the  associated shenanigans (Merlins and furballs etc.) in your opinion had a overall positive or negative effect on the image of hadicap racing.........Personally I would say negative.   

And it's doubly a problem when despite all the craft there are, there aint exactly a surplus of good examples of desirable modern products to purchase so the choice is either sail something you like and put up with bad racing, or get good racing and put up with a crock of ess aich one tee.

Has this done any damage, only by the organisers actually tinkering with the handicaps and moving the goal posts ridiculously in order to gain more entries. You can't mess with a system the way they do, we've done the discussion, but the whole handicap system is screwed for the lack of a median accepted null point.

I'll be up at the dinghy show, 4 of us and only one of us will probably even know there has been an event, most folk are oblivious to all this.

 

Just because something is discussed at length on here, by at best 2 dozen people, it doesn't mean that the other 900 or so people that competed in the SailJuice series know, or even care about it.

 

Yes, there appears to have been an issue, yes, a similar one occured a couple of years ago, but IMHO it makes little or no difference to the "average" sailor that wants to compete in these events.

 

I voted that YES, a line has been crossed, but not by the vast majority of competitors, not by the organisers of the individual events, and not by SailJuice.  If a protest was lodged and not dealt with correctly then yes, there would be questions in my mind, but that hasn't happened, and most of the passionate objections on here have been from people that didn't even attend.

 JimC - with your example, boat B could have retired before the hearing and not received the DSQ (it would have been a tough one to defend being keep clear boat) but that's just an experience thing I guess and knowing the process of a protest.

Trouble is that many who consider themselves as wise are in fact fools ... we don't have to look hard for an example 

So given that I support the hard line ... but with a range of punishments ... from a minor "fine" for the RNLI to DSQ.

 

I'm generally one for probing rules as I don't think they can ever be black and white, because human ingenuity will always find a way of making them fuzzy.

 

I used phrase "the line" in my last post on the Stevie Nick thread, because although I think it is nebulous, it does describe and represent the collective view of people to whom the rule impacts, both participants and spectators. On the whole the collective view is quite accommodating of genuine mistakes, understandable mis-interpretations etc and quite good at sniffing out what is blatantly not in the spirit of the rules. Getting a feel for the collective view can be quite difficult and although a forum can have many faults, the collective view can manifest itself here better than many other places I could care to mention. People don't like individual confrontation and shy away from protests (I know I'm guilty of that), whereas the forums can allow people to express views more easily.

 

That's why I think the discussion on "the line" with regard to the the sailjuice series should be taken much more seriously by the people/organisations involved.

I would expect any sailor participating at an 'Open' event, whether it be handicap or class to have a working knowledge of and comply with the rules of our sport. this includes ensuring your boat is compliant with class rules.

At Club level where (I would say 100% of us) learn to race then attitudes can be more relaxed. You do not want to be hollering (and bullying) people who are just starting out on their racing forays as they are the future of the sport.

We had a guy at Hunts who was a really vocal person and was particularly unpleasant to some of our younger members. As a result our youth section suffered badly for a few years. He has now moved on and we have a thriving youth section producing some good racers and a lot of instructors.

As to the original question... if the guys knew their sails were unmeasured then yes they did break the rules. Did they cross the line? In my opinion yes. they are top sailors in their class and they should be leading by example.

 

I have seen in the past a type of sailor who knows he is in the wrong but also knows the nuances of a protest committee and exploits that to the full. This is not honourable conduct and in my experience is what turns people off sailing the most.

 

We have all seen it the blatant port and starboard, mark touching which all require typically a witness in addition to the protestee to make it stick. It is this apathy within a class that results in no witnesses coming forward and eventually leads to people leaving the class. 

+1 - well expressed Paul 

http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-east-news/breaking-news/2013/02/25/central-high-school-misses-national-netball-final-because-of-10p-debt-72703-32879826/ - http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-east-news/breaking-news/2013/02/25/central-high-school-misses-national-netball-final-because-of-10p-debt-72703-32879826/

Do not forget this is competing at a national level where I think we all agree the rules should be abided by.

Yes I believe so ... 

I need to go and check this, so does that also mean I should retire retrospectively from the FOM?

 

Hhhhhmmmm - technically yes if the written class rules say so, BUT in reality in an open handicap event does it matter...no not at all in my opinion.

I think a little common sense comes in to play though doesn't it... if you are borrowing a Laser from a mate because your crew is sensibly tucked up with ale, pie and pub fire watching the rugby, then should you be an UKLA member to take part in a handicap event?

I guess I'm just one of those folks who thinks class association membership is usually worth the incidental cost, (I do plan to join the Solo one very soon ) and anyone travelling to events like this would probably be a CA member where applicable anyway.  

Final results seem to suggest Pinnell & Bax win the 'constructors trophy'... but jesting aside, well done to Thomas Gillard for winning overall for the Fireball class.

http://events.sailracer.org/eventsites/content.asp?eventid=51516&id=20509 - http://events.sailracer.org/eventsites/content.asp?eventid=51516&id=20509

http://BLOG.PINBAX.COM - http://BLOG.PINBAX.COM

That P&B outfit were crap dealing with the Alto, and they're just another dinosaur supporting ancient has been fleets to my mind. Then it takes all sorts. I wouldn't use them, nor that speed sails outfit after all this so, are they are connected with that Northampton Sailboats someone reccommended to me some time back? Or are P&B competitors?

Seriously, churning old classes, artificially trying to make silk out of sows ears, at the expense of the integrity of young talent, it's pathetic.

The only way you get more than 11 people sailing something is for twenty odd dealers to order two each, one to demo, the other to sell, then each to sell another and another, that's the way things work.

But not in this lark, which is why it will always be condemned to the margins.