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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Individual recall-time limit
    Posted: 03 Sep 12 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by Contender443

... as we did not indicate it at the time our protest would also have been refused on a technicality.
No, your protest would have been declared invalid and the hearing closed (rule 63.5) because you would have broken rule 61.1(a), which states ' A boat intending to protest shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity ...'.

Hail of 'protest', flag, and written protest within the protest time limit are part of the game prescribed in the rules, not 'technicalities'.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 12 at 4:24pm
Wouldn't the first opportunity be when you discover that the boat has been given a finishing position, in this case? Otherwise, you'd have to shout protest at any boat over the line, just in case?
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 12 at 7:35pm
I presume that the hearing was in fact a redress hearing when boat found that she was OCS.In which case time limit would start from the moment the official results were posted.
Gordon
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Contender443 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1211 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender443 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 1:05pm
Not sure about that one Gordon.
 
We would normally leave it to the RO to score someone OCS and do the flags correctly. In this case they flew the wrong flag so the OCS boat followed the rules to the letter and said they did not know if they were over because of this.
 
So any other racer placing a protest against the OCS boat would have to do it in the normal time limits from the end of the race.
 
The lesson here is if you see the RO make a mistake with the flags such as this you should follow the correct protest procedure for an on the water protest against another competitor. You can then call the RO as a witness (plus anyone else who saw) to the OCS to make sure the boat gets the correct penalty. 
 
I think if we had done this the boat would have retired but in this case it used the rules to their advantage because we did not think to place our protest until it was too late. We all thought they would accept the RO made a mistake but the intention was there. This was only a Sunday morning club race afterall with a RO who only does the job once or twice a year.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by Contender443

In this case they flew the wrong flag so the OCS boat followed the rules to the letter and said they did not know if they were over because of this. So any other racer placing a protest against the OCS boat would have to do it in the normal time limits from the end of the race.


I don't find this argument very convincing in lots of ways. Do you have any evidence in Case books or whatever that the protest would have to be immediate, not on the other boat receiving redress?

It would also be very interesting to see the facts found for the Redress Hearing, because if I were the PC, reading Case 31, and noting the text "if she realises she is over the line" I would have been enquiring of the boat requesting redress very carefully about exactly what they thought the sound signal and incorrect flag was meant to signify, and be looking very hard as to whether they had any reason to suspect they might be over the line. I'd also be asking the RC about how far the boat was across the line, whether there were any hails and so on.

If the boat got reinstated in their finishing position without any allowance at all for their early start I think they should be looking very hard at themselves.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 3:43pm
I agree with Contender 443.

Time running from the time results posted is appropriate for a request for redress.

For a protest where the allegation is that the boat broke rule 28 ("... boat did not start [in accordance with Definition:  start] ...), that is 'an incident in the racing area that [the protesting boat] sees ...'.  Rule 61.1(a) applies and requires hail of 'protest' and display of red flag (if required) at the first reasonable opportunity for each.

Case 112 provides that the hail and flag may be given any time up to the time the protestee finishes.

You don't need a Case to apply a straightforward rule.

A boat may NOT wait and see what another boat or what the race committee or the protest committee does before hailing and displaying the flag.

RYA 1981/7
A third boat that has witnessed an incident between
other boats, and wishes to protest, cannot justify her
own failure to display a protest flag on the grounds
that none of the other boats lodged a valid protest
after displaying a protest flag.

RYA 1996/2
When a boat sees an incident between two other boats
in the racing area and wishes to protest one or both of
them, she must display a protest flag, when applicable,
at the first reasonable opportunity after the incident.

But it should not be necessary for boats to protest for a failed recall signal incident.

The boat in question indubitably was 'on the course side of the starting line at the starting signal and failed to start [in accordance with Definition:  start]', thus meeting the requirement to be scored OCS shown in Rule A11 and should have been scored OCS by the Race Committee.  It would have been an improper action for the Race Committee to do otherwise.

The improper action by the Race Committee was the displaying of the wrong flag to signal Individual Recall, NOT scoring the boat OCS.

The boat, on valid request, was entitled to redress, which, as I discussed in a previous post should be based on Case 31, which provides:

If the redress given is to adjust the boat’s race score, it should reflect the fact that, generally, when a recalled boat returns to the pre-course side of the line after her starting signal, she usually starts some time after boats that were not recalled. An allowance for that time should be made.

It appears that in this case, the protest committee was correct in deciding to give redress, but erred in giving redress by reinstating the boat to her finishing place without the adjustment for the time it would have taken for her to return and restart correctly.

OK, so that provides grounds for any other boat affected to request redress for the improper action of the protest committee, and time for that request for redress runs from the time the affected boats learn of the decision, by the posting of the protest committee's written decision, or results adjusted for that decision (Q&A 2010-006).  An affected boat could also request a reopening under rule 66.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 3:48pm
Brass, that all sounds perfectly logical to me, but I don't think you're agreeing with Contender443!
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Posts: 350 		Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by Contender443

Not sure about that one Gordon.
 
We would normally leave it to the RO to score someone OCS and do the flags correctly. In this case they flew the wrong flag so the OCS boat followed the rules to the letter and said they did not know if they were over because of this.
 
So any other racer placing a protest against the OCS boat would have to do it in the normal time limits from the end of the race.
 
The lesson here is if you see the RO make a mistake with the flags such as this you should follow the correct protest procedure for an on the water protest against another competitor. You can then call the RO as a witness (plus anyone else who saw) to the OCS to make sure the boat gets the correct penalty. 
 

if the RO is seen to make such a mistake shouldn't the 'third party' boat protest the RO (rather than calling the RO as a witness)?
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 4:49pm
Unfortunately we do not have the facts found.

If the PC found that the boat was clearly over the line then the display of the wrong flag is NOT, in itself, grounds for redress. Redress can only be given if there was no other way for the oat in question to know she was OCS. If it is found as a fact that she was only an inch or two over the line then redress should be considered. If, as I believe it has been stated, another boat that was behind the boat in question returned to start correctly, then there is little or no hope of redress being granted.

To obtain redress in this instance it has to be demonstrated that a boats score has been made worse, by an imprer action of the RC, through no fault of her own. If the boat was clearly over the line then the "through no fauly of her own" condition is not met.

If, despite the above; redress was granted, then a third party can only request redress if they believe that the redress granted has made their own score worse by an improper action of the PC. The start of the time limit for this redress is the moment that the PC redress decidion is posted.
Gordon
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