Individual recall-time limit
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Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9746
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 7:08am
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Topic: Individual recall-time limit
Posted By: drifter
Subject: Individual recall-time limit
Date Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 9:58pm
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Most unusually for me, I got called OCS on Sunday. The Race Officer shouted "Albacore" (which I was the only one)-no flag or sound signal so I just sailed on for nearly a minute, when suddenly the sound signal and flag went up. Obviously (and despite the drifting conditions) the 22 knot performance of my craft meant I was some distance from the line by then, and plenty traffic to leeward for the return. RRS say OOD flags "promptly" flags boats OCS. I was less than pleased. Anyone ever been here and got any satisfaction in the protest room?
------------- Stewart |
Replies:
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 10:21pm
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CASE 79 Rule 29.1, Recalls:
Individual Recall When a boat has no
reason to know that she crossed the starting line early and the race committee
fails to promptly signal ‘Individual recall’ and scores her OCS, this is an
error that significantly worsens the boat’s score through no fault of her own,
and therefore entitles her to redress. Assumed Facts At the start of a
race for one-design boats, ten boats near the middle of the starting line were
slightly across the line at their starting signal. The race committee signalled
‘Individual recall’ by displaying flag X with one gun. However, these signals
were made approximately 40 seconds after the starting signal. None of the boats
returned to start, and several of them lodged requests for redress upon
learning after the race that they had been scored OCS. Question 1 In rule 29.1, what
does ‘promptly display’ mean? Answer 1 No specific amount of
time will apply in all circumstances, but in this rule it means a very short
time. A race committee should signal ‘Individual recall’ within a very few
seconds of the starting signal. Forty seconds is well beyond the limits of
acceptability. Question 2 Is it reasonable for
a boat to request redress because of a less-than-prompt individual recall
signal, even when she did not return to start? Answer 2 Yes. Question 3 Why should a boat be
given redress because of the committee’s failure to signal promptly, when the
rules say that failure to notify a boat that she is on the course side of the
starting line at her starting signal does not relieve her of her obligation to
start correctly? Answer 3 The rules do not say
this. Rule 29.1 obligates the committee to signal all boats that one or more of
them are on the course side of the starting line at the starting signal. Rule
28.1 and, if it applies, rule 30.1 obligate each boat to return to the
pre-start side of the line and then start, but this assumes that the signals,
both visual and sound, have been made. When a signal is not made or, as in this
case, when the signal is much too late, it places a boat that does not realize
that she was slightly over the line at the starting signal at a significant
disadvantage because she can not use the information the signal provides, in
combination with her observations of her position relative to other boats at
the time the signal is made, to decide whether or not to return to the
pre-start side of the line. Question 4 How can a boat that
fails to start properly be entitled to redress when rule 62.1 requires that her
score be made significantly worse ‘through no fault of her own’? Answer 4 A boat that has no
reason to believe that she was on the course side of the line at her starting
signal has the right to assume that she started correctly unless properly
signalled to the contrary. As Answer 3 indicates, a boat can be significantly
disadvantaged by a delay by the race committee in making the recall signal.
That error is entirely the race committee’s fault, and not that of the
disadvantaged boat. (See Case 31 for a discussion of appropriate redress in a
similar situation.)
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Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 10:28pm
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Thanks-that's very useful
------------- Stewart |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 10:26am
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So given that drifter didn't 'start' correctly but was not aware of it (does a shout of 'albacore' by the race team really mean anything?).Assuming the race team can pinpoint a 'finish' time (assumption made that it was a handicap event). What redress would be considered fair for a boat that never 'started' the race? I would suggest that drifters 'finish' position would have reasonably demonsrated their position had they 'started' the race but with some adjustment for a prompt return to start correctly, being added to their finish time. Whilst it may have only taken 15 seconds or so to return and restart, this could have put them in a less favourable position in the fleet with dirty air, rather than the clean jump start that they got. I would have though that perhaps redress could be given calculated on the 'finish' time plus say 30 - 60 seconds and no other boats positions affected by the redress. Alternatively, the Hayling Island model could be used  . |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 10:59am
Missed the last line of the quoted Case 79 did we? <g>. "See Case 31 for a discussion of appropriate redress in a similar situation." Relevant bit from Case 31:
What's the 'Hayling Island model'?
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 11:10am
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Redress, if granted in a handicap race should be finishing time plus an allowance for the time to return and restart if the required signals had been displayed and sounded promptly. 30 seconds sounds reasonable. When redress is given this does not affect the scores of other boats unless the PC decides otherwise (rule A6.2) PS At least until the early 80's the default setting for recalls was to call out the "recall numbers" of OCS boats! ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 11:35am
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Your lucky they even shouted Albacore, last time this happened to me, they tooted a 2nd gun, said nothing, even conversing with us on the way round, gave us a finishing signal, and then after I'd left had a bit of a conflab, decided we 'might' have been over and binned us. (We'd won by quite few minutes) ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 12:06pm
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It would seem that all the money spent on race official training has not trickled down to the clubs where members of this forum sail. On my many trips to the UK (now a totally foreign country to the one I left in 1980) I have met many competent, keen and convivial race officials. Perhapsthey are not getting to your club. PS I never did believe in the trickledown effect anyway - it was mumbo-jumbo economics. Didn't think that race management would be another proof of it's inefficacity ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 3:03pm
I believe you should have crossed the line to silence in that case. If they finished you then it puts them at a disadvantage should any protest/redress hearing be required. When a boat is OCS I do not give them a finish hoot but I always make a note of the time they finish just in case it is required for redress/protest purposes. The post from Brass answers the OP question perfectly. Hails mean nothing without the correct signals unless it is blatantly obvious the boat is over and they know it. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 3:29pm
Sorry Brass, didn't mean that to be a teaser. I was rather tongue in cheek trying to refer to an OCS (BFD) redress decision made at the Merlin Rocket nationals last year hosted at Hayling Island SC. Turned into a rather convoluted set of events with the redress decision eventually being overturned on appeal. Much discussed on this forum, can't seem to find any of the relevant threads for you. To recap; A boat challanged a BFD decision - having completed the race in 3rd position. Redress was given (but bizarrely) as an average points score for all races - it was quite early in the series. In the final race they were leading the championship and the 2nd overall placed boat expertly and legitimately sailed them down the fleet to give them 2 bad scores and thus lose the championship. One of the many discussion points (there was a lot of hot air about the whole affair) was why the redress awarded was average points, when there was a 3rd place finish position to be used. |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 5:27pm
Sound signals at the finish have no meaning under RRS. From the ISAF Race Management manual.
The RYA race management handbook's view:
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 1:34pm
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They RYA seem to be out of touch with their management guide then. Pretty much every club/open/nationals that I have entered over the years always gives a signal if you finish ans nothing if you do not. this helps indicate that there was an issue and you need to take action. otherwise how is a competitor to know they need to request redress until the results are published (which is usually after the time limi has expired)? Perhaps this should be addressed somehow? You never know the new rules may take this in to account. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 1:46pm
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Probably more a case of most ODs never reading the RYA documents. As for time limits - The time limit would be 2 hours after the posting of the results on the official notice board. The "incident" occurs when the race committe makes the boats score significantly worse by posting a result that is, allegedly, erroneous. Rule 62.2 ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 2:52pm
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We use a hoot for 1st to cross, followed by a bell for the rest. It certainly feels better to acknowledge that someone has crossed the line, and stops the constant "have I finished?" question, especially when using average lap times.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 3:17pm
Many, many, many years ago I crewed for a friend in his Merlin for the Bala Long Distance Race and just as we crossed the finish line a brass band started up 
------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 23 Aug 12 at 7:50am
Excellent!
I'll suggest something like that to our race committee, but I don't know how they will all fit on the committee boat!
 |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 03 Sep 12 at 8:58am
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OK this happened yesterday at our club. A boat was clearly over the line and was witnessed by several boats in the same start and from people on the shore. The RO gave a second sound signal and put a flag up. The only problem was he put the shorten course flag up instead of the individual recall.
He scored this boat OCS but then a protest hearing was held and quite rightly the OCS boat was re-instated as the correct procedure was not followed.
Now my question is could one of the other competitors in the race have protested someone for being over the line? (The evidence and witnesses available would have backed this up. I guess we could even call the RO as a witness.) ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 03 Sep 12 at 11:01am
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Boat should not have been reinstated: she should have been given adjusted time/placing allowing for the time she would have taken to return and restart correctly if the recall signal had been given correctly. See http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9746&PID=1327337&title=individual-recalltime-limit#1327337 - Post 3 . Yes, any boat would have been entitled to protest. Hail, flag if necessary at first reasonable opportunity after the incident, with written protest delivered in time required for protest to be valid.
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 03 Sep 12 at 11:48am
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If the boat was clearly over the line, and it is established as a fact that it was clear to the boat involved that she was over the line then she was NOT entitled to redress. Redress should only be granted when the OCS call is not obvious and the boat can only know that she is OCS by the flag and sound sugnals. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 03 Sep 12 at 12:45pm
With hindsight we should have protested them but as we did not indicate it at the time our protest would also have been refused on a technicality. ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 03 Sep 12 at 3:16pm
No, your protest would have been declared invalid and the hearing closed (rule 63.5) because you would have broken rule 61.1(a), which states ' A boat intending to protest shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity ...'. Hail of 'protest', flag, and written protest within the protest time limit are part of the game prescribed in the rules, not 'technicalities'.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Sep 12 at 4:24pm
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Wouldn't the first opportunity be when you discover that the boat has been given a finishing position, in this case? Otherwise, you'd have to shout protest at any boat over the line, just in case?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 03 Sep 12 at 7:35pm
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I presume that the hearing was in fact a redress hearing when boat found that she was OCS.In which case time limit would start from the moment the official results were posted.
------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 1:05pm
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Not sure about that one Gordon.
We would normally leave it to the RO to score someone OCS and do the flags correctly. In this case they flew the wrong flag so the OCS boat followed the rules to the letter and said they did not know if they were over because of this.
So any other racer placing a protest against the OCS boat would have to do it in the normal time limits from the end of the race.
The lesson here is if you see the RO make a mistake with the flags such as this you should follow the correct protest procedure for an on the water protest against another competitor. You can then call the RO as a witness (plus anyone else who saw) to the OCS to make sure the boat gets the correct penalty.
I think if we had done this the boat would have retired but in this case it used the rules to their advantage because we did not think to place our protest until it was too late. We all thought they would accept the RO made a mistake but the intention was there. This was only a Sunday morning club race afterall with a RO who only does the job once or twice a year. ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 2:33pm
I don't find this argument very convincing in lots of ways. Do you have any evidence in Case books or whatever that the protest would have to be immediate, not on the other boat receiving redress? It would also be very interesting to see the facts found for the Redress Hearing, because if I were the PC, reading Case 31, and noting the text "if she realises she is over the line" I would have been enquiring of the boat requesting redress very carefully about exactly what they thought the sound signal and incorrect flag was meant to signify, and be looking very hard as to whether they had any reason to suspect they might be over the line. I'd also be asking the RC about how far the boat was across the line, whether there were any hails and so on. If the boat got reinstated in their finishing position without any allowance at all for their early start I think they should be looking very hard at themselves. |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 3:43pm
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I agree with Contender 443. Time running from the time results posted is appropriate for a request for redress. For a protest where the allegation is that the boat broke rule 28 ("... boat did not start [in accordance with Definition: start] ...), that is 'an incident in the racing area that [the protesting boat] sees ...'. Rule 61.1(a) applies and requires hail of 'protest' and display of red flag (if required) at the first reasonable opportunity for each. Case 112 provides that the hail and flag may be given any time up to the time the protestee finishes. You don't need a Case to apply a straightforward rule. A boat may NOT wait and see what another boat or what the race committee or the protest committee does before hailing and displaying the flag. RYA 1981/7 A third boat that has witnessed an incident between other boats, and wishes to protest, cannot justify her own failure to display a protest flag on the grounds that none of the other boats lodged a valid protest after displaying a protest flag. RYA 1996/2 When a boat sees an incident between two other boats in the racing area and wishes to protest one or both of them, she must display a protest flag, when applicable, at the first reasonable opportunity after the incident. But it should not be necessary for boats to protest for a failed recall signal incident. The boat in question indubitably was 'on the course side of the starting line at the starting signal and failed to start [in accordance with Definition: start]', thus meeting the requirement to be scored OCS shown in Rule A11 and should have been scored OCS by the Race Committee. It would have been an improper action for the Race Committee to do otherwise. The improper action by the Race Committee was the displaying of the wrong flag to signal Individual Recall, NOT scoring the boat OCS. The boat, on valid request, was entitled to redress, which, as I discussed in a previous post should be based on Case 31, which provides:
OK, so that provides grounds for any other boat affected to request redress for the improper action of the protest committee, and time for that request for redress runs from the time the affected boats learn of the decision, by the posting of the protest committee's written decision, or results adjusted for that decision (Q&A 2010-006). An affected boat could also request a reopening under rule 66.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 3:48pm
| Brass, that all sounds perfectly logical to me, but I don't think you're agreeing with Contender443! |
Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 3:53pm
if the RO is seen to make such a mistake shouldn't the 'third party' boat protest the RO (rather than calling the RO as a witness)?
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 4:49pm
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Unfortunately we do not have the facts found. If the PC found that the boat was clearly over the line then the display of the wrong flag is NOT, in itself, grounds for redress. Redress can only be given if there was no other way for the oat in question to know she was OCS. If it is found as a fact that she was only an inch or two over the line then redress should be considered. If, as I believe it has been stated, another boat that was behind the boat in question returned to start correctly, then there is little or no hope of redress being granted. To obtain redress in this instance it has to be demonstrated that a boats score has been made worse, by an imprer action of the RC, through no fault of her own. If the boat was clearly over the line then the "through no fauly of her own" condition is not met. If, despite the above; redress was granted, then a third party can only request redress if they believe that the redress granted has made their own score worse by an improper action of the PC. The start of the time limit for this redress is the moment that the PC redress decidion is posted. ------------- Gordon |