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Individual recall-time limit
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Individual recall-time limit
    Posted: 03 Sep 12 at 11:48am
If the boat was clearly over the line, and it is established as a fact that it was clear to the boat involved that she was over the line then she was NOT entitled to redress. Redress should only be granted when the OCS call is not obvious and the boat can only know that she is OCS by the flag and sound sugnals.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 12 at 11:01am
Boat should not have been reinstated:  she should have been given adjusted time/placing allowing for the time she would have taken to return and restart correctly if the recall signal had been given correctly.  See Post 3.

Yes, any boat would have been entitled to protest.  Hail, flag if necessary at first reasonable opportunity after the incident, with written protest delivered in time required for protest to be valid.
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Contender443 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1211 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender443 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 12 at 8:58am
OK this happened yesterday at our club. A  boat was clearly over the line and was witnessed by several boats in the same start and from people on the shore. The RO gave a second sound signal and put a flag up. The only problem was he put the shorten course flag up instead of the individual recall.
 
He scored this boat OCS but then a protest hearing was held and quite rightly the OCS boat was re-instated as the correct procedure was not followed.
 
Now my question is could one of the other competitors in the race have protested someone for being over the line? (The evidence and witnesses available would have backed this up. I guess we could even call the RO as a witness.)
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 12 at 7:50am
Originally posted by SoggyBadger

Many, many, many years ago I crewed for a friend in his Merlin for the Bala Long Distance Race and just as we crossed the finish line a brass band started up  Big smile
 
Excellent!
I'll suggest something like that to our race committee, but I don't know how they will all fit on the committee boat! LOL
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SoggyBadger View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 3:17pm
Many, many, many years ago I crewed for a friend in his Merlin for the Bala Long Distance Race and just as we crossed the finish line a brass band started up  Big smile
Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB

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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 2:52pm
We use a hoot for 1st to cross, followed by a bell for the rest. It certainly feels better to acknowledge that someone has crossed the line, and stops the constant "have I finished?" question, especially when using average lap times.
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 1:46pm
Probably more a case of most ODs never reading the RYA documents.

As for time limits - The time limit would be 2 hours after the posting of the results on the official notice board. The "incident" occurs when the race committe makes the boats score significantly worse by posting a result that is, allegedly, erroneous. Rule 62.2
Gordon
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 1:34pm
They RYA seem to be out of touch with their management guide then. Pretty much every club/open/nationals that I have entered over the years always gives a signal if you finish ans nothing if you do not. this helps indicate that there was an issue and you need to take action. otherwise how is a competitor to know they need to request redress until the results are published (which is usually after the time limi has expired)?

Perhaps this should be addressed somehow? You never know the new rules may take this in to account.
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by jeffers

When a boat is OCS I do not give them a finish hoot but I always make a note of the time they finish just in case it is required for redress/protest purposes.

Sound signals at the finish have no meaning under RRS. From the ISAF Race Management manual. 

O.4 Finishing procedure
The instant the first boat finishes, sound a clearly recognizable signal (e.g. a gun shot), so that the other competitors have a time reference to the first finish; record the hour, minute and seconds, and calculate the time limit.

The finish of the subsequent boats may be accompanied by a different sound signal, such as a whistle or a horn. However, a sound signal for boats finishing is not compulsory. It is just a means of communication to the competitor ("We have noticed you crossing the finishing line"); but a sound signal given to a boat does not necessarily mean that boat validly finishes according to the RRS Definitions. If that boat e.g. infringed the Black Flag Rule, but continues the race and then crosses the finishing line (receiving a sound signal), it still will be scored DSQ (RRS 30.3 and RRS A 3).

The RYA race management handbook's view: 

SOUND SIGNALS AT THE FINISH
The instant the first boat that started properly finishes, sound a clearly recognizable signal, so that
the other competitors have a time reference to the first finish. This time must be recorded (the hour, minute and seconds) and the time limit calculated. It should be remembered however, that an OCS boat that was the first to cross the finish line may request redress and be reinstated, thus influencing the time limit.

No other sound signals should be made. There is no reference to a sound signal being required in the RRS, when a boat finishes. Making a sound signal for every boat is a nuisance when the RO is recording the finishing positions on a dictaphone.
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by Brass

What's the 'Hayling Island model'?
 
Sorry Brass, didn't mean that to be a teaser.
I was rather tongue in cheek trying to refer to an OCS (BFD) redress decision made at the Merlin Rocket nationals last year hosted at Hayling Island SC. Turned into a rather convoluted set of events with the redress decision eventually being overturned on appeal.
Much discussed on this forum, can't seem to find any of the relevant threads for you.
To recap; A boat challanged a BFD decision - having completed the race in 3rd position.
Redress was given (but bizarrely) as an average points score for all races - it was quite early in the series.
In the final race they were leading the championship and the 2nd overall placed boat expertly and legitimately sailed them down the fleet to give them 2 bad scores and thus lose the championship.
One of the many discussion points (there was a lot of hot air about the whole affair) was why the redress awarded was average points, when there was a 3rd place finish position to be used.
  
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