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Individual recall-time limit

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Post Options Post Options   Quote drifter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Individual recall-time limit
    Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 9:58pm
Most unusually for me, I got called OCS on Sunday. The Race Officer shouted "Albacore" (which I was the only one)-no flag or sound signal so I just sailed on for nearly a minute, when suddenly the sound signal and flag went up. Obviously (and despite the drifting conditions) the 22 knot performance of my craft meant I was some distance from the line by then, and plenty traffic to leeward for the return. RRS say OOD flags "promptly" flags boats OCS. I was less than pleased. Anyone ever been here and got any satisfaction in the protest room?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 10:21pm

CASE 79

Rule 29.1, Recalls: Individual Recall

When a boat has no reason to know that she crossed the starting line early and the race committee fails to promptly signal ‘Individual recall’ and scores her OCS, this is an error that significantly worsens the boat’s score through no fault of her own, and therefore entitles her to redress.

Assumed Facts

At the start of a race for one-design boats, ten boats near the middle of the starting line were slightly across the line at their starting signal. The race committee signalled ‘Individual recall’ by displaying flag X with one gun. However, these signals were made approximately 40 seconds after the starting signal. None of the boats returned to start, and several of them lodged requests for redress upon learning after the race that they had been scored OCS.

Question 1

In rule 29.1, what does ‘promptly display’ mean?

Answer 1

No specific amount of time will apply in all circumstances, but in this rule it means a very short time. A race committee should signal ‘Individual recall’ within a very few seconds of the starting signal. Forty seconds is well beyond the limits of acceptability.

Question 2

Is it reasonable for a boat to request redress because of a less-than-prompt individual recall signal, even when she did not return to start?

Answer 2

Yes.

Question 3

Why should a boat be given redress because of the committee’s failure to signal promptly, when the rules say that failure to notify a boat that she is on the course side of the starting line at her starting signal does not relieve her of her obligation to start correctly?

Answer 3

The rules do not say this. Rule 29.1 obligates the committee to signal all boats that one or more of them are on the course side of the starting line at the starting signal. Rule 28.1 and, if it applies, rule 30.1 obligate each boat to return to the pre-start side of the line and then start, but this assumes that the signals, both visual and sound, have been made. When a signal is not made or, as in this case, when the signal is much too late, it places a boat that does not realize that she was slightly over the line at the starting signal at a significant disadvantage because she can not use the information the signal provides, in combination with her observations of her position relative to other boats at the time the signal is made, to decide whether or not to return to the pre-start side of the line.

Question 4

How can a boat that fails to start properly be entitled to redress when rule 62.1 requires that her score be made significantly worse ‘through no fault of her own’?

Answer 4

A boat that has no reason to believe that she was on the course side of the line at her starting signal has the right to assume that she started correctly unless properly signalled to the contrary. As Answer 3 indicates, a boat can be significantly disadvantaged by a delay by the race committee in making the recall signal. That error is entirely the race committee’s fault, and not that of the disadvantaged boat. (See Case 31 for a discussion of appropriate redress in a similar situation.)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote drifter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 10:28pm
Thanks-that's very useful
Stewart
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 10:26am
So given that drifter didn't 'start' correctly but was not aware of it (does a shout of 'albacore' by the race team really mean anything?).
Assuming the race team can pinpoint a 'finish' time (assumption made that it was a handicap event).
What redress would be considered fair for a boat that never 'started' the race?
 
I would suggest that drifters 'finish' position would have reasonably demonsrated their position had they 'started' the race but with some adjustment for a prompt return to start correctly, being added to their finish time. Whilst it may have only taken 15 seconds or so to return and restart, this could have put them in a less favourable position in the fleet with dirty air, rather than the clean jump start that they got. I would have though that perhaps redress could be given calculated on the 'finish' time plus say 30 - 60 seconds and no other boats positions affected by the redress.
Alternatively, the Hayling Island model could be used Confused.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 10:59am
Originally posted by Andymac

So given that drifter didn't 'start' correctly but was not aware of it (does a shout of 'albacore' by the race team really mean anything?).
Assuming the race team can pinpoint a 'finish' time (assumption made that it was a handicap event).
What redress would be considered fair for a boat that never 'started' the race?
 
I would suggest that drifters 'finish' position would have reasonably demonsrated their position had they 'started' the race but with some adjustment for a prompt return to start correctly, being added to their finish time. Whilst it may have only taken 15 seconds or so to return and restart, this could have put them in a less favourable position in the fleet with dirty air, rather than the clean jump start that they got. I would have though that perhaps redress could be given calculated on the 'finish' time plus say 30 - 60 seconds and no other boats positions affected by the redress.
Alternatively, the Hayling Island model could be used Confused.
 
Missed the last line of the quoted Case 79 did we? <g>.
 
"See Case 31 for a discussion of appropriate redress in a similar situation."
 
Relevant bit from Case 31:
 
"… the redress given … should reflect the fact that, generally, when a recalled boat returns to the pre-course side of the line after her starting signal, she usually starts some time after boats that were not recalled. An allowance for that time should be made."
 
 
What's the 'Hayling Island model'?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 11:10am
Redress, if granted in a handicap race should be finishing time plus an allowance for the time to return and restart if the required signals had been displayed and sounded promptly.

30 seconds sounds reasonable.

When redress is given this does not affect the scores of other boats unless the PC decides otherwise (rule A6.2)

PS At least until the early 80's the default setting for recalls was to call out the "recall numbers" of OCS boats!
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 11:35am
Your lucky they even shouted Albacore, last time this happened to me, they tooted a 2nd gun, said nothing, even conversing with us on the way round, gave us a finishing signal, and then after I'd left had a bit of a conflab, decided we 'might' have been over and binned us. (We'd won by quite few minutes)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 12:06pm
It would seem that all the money spent on race official training has not trickled down to the clubs where members of this forum sail.

On my many trips to the UK (now a totally foreign country to the one I left in 1980) I have met many competent, keen and convivial race officials. Perhapsthey are not getting to your club.

PS I never did believe in the trickledown effect anyway - it was mumbo-jumbo economics. Didn't think that race management would be another proof of it's inefficacity
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Your lucky they even shouted Albacore, last time this happened to me, they tooted a 2nd gun, said nothing, even conversing with us on the way round, gave us a finishing signal, and then after I'd left had a bit of a conflab, decided we 'might' have been over and binned us. (We'd won by quite few minutes)

I believe you should have crossed the line to silence in that case. If they finished you then it puts them at a disadvantage should any protest/redress hearing be required. When a boat is OCS I do not give them a finish hoot but I always make a note of the time they finish just in case it is required for redress/protest purposes.

The post from Brass answers the OP question perfectly. Hails mean nothing without the correct signals unless it is blatantly obvious the boat is over and they know it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by Brass

What's the 'Hayling Island model'?
 
Sorry Brass, didn't mean that to be a teaser.
I was rather tongue in cheek trying to refer to an OCS (BFD) redress decision made at the Merlin Rocket nationals last year hosted at Hayling Island SC. Turned into a rather convoluted set of events with the redress decision eventually being overturned on appeal.
Much discussed on this forum, can't seem to find any of the relevant threads for you.
To recap; A boat challanged a BFD decision - having completed the race in 3rd position.
Redress was given (but bizarrely) as an average points score for all races - it was quite early in the series.
In the final race they were leading the championship and the 2nd overall placed boat expertly and legitimately sailed them down the fleet to give them 2 bad scores and thus lose the championship.
One of the many discussion points (there was a lot of hot air about the whole affair) was why the redress awarded was average points, when there was a 3rd place finish position to be used.
  
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