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tickel View Drop Down
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Posts: 408 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tickel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Classes Table Discussion
    Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 9:13am
Please ear in mind that I was spectating at the Lightning Nationals and even with my limited experience I was capable of judging standards and abilities. It would seem however that the regular sailors who were not there were the competitors less likely to do well.

I have previously observed that all fleets weather big or small all divide the same. A few at the top with a chance of winning, a large average group then some tail enders out for fun. If your sister is getting married, the weather is crap or the wind is extreme the good guys will continue when the average will stay in the bar or attend the church. Big fleets seem to be caused by boats that are fairly easy and trouble free and that have the advantage of commercial promotion.
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 9:45am
Originally posted by Xpletive

I'm not sure I like the inference in these posts that a winner in a large fleet must be superior to a winner in a smaller fleet.

No nor do I, I don't like the term superior in any inter human discussion personally, but getting back to fleet and fleet size, if you're good, big fleets are far easier to win than small, because your competitors errors are magnified.

In a small fleet a competitor can make a bad judgement call, get a duff shift, yet still be next man round or next but one man round and with little negative influence to distance him from you in the event of your own inevitable clangour. 

So small fleets magnify the board/boat/body weight advantage-disadvantage in relation to your position over the water.

Get a good start and first beat with your particular opponents ( if you think of them in single figures) separated from you by dozens of boats and they're less likely to trouble you, do the same in a small fleet and they'll be on you like a bad rash if they or they're kits faster than you. (You can tell I only won stuff by tactics not board speed).

Now none of this makes you any better or lessor person it's more down to physics at the end of the day and/or mind over matter. (assuming of course that you've done what it takes to compete on even terms of course)

It's why the Olympics is more difficult to win than say a world championships.


Edited by G.R.F. - 16 Sep 11 at 9:49am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 10:15am
Originally posted by tickel

Please ear in mind that I was spectating at the Lightning Nationals and even with my limited experience I was capable of judging standards and abilities. .

Sure, but please note as I said in the earlier post; "Please let me make it clear I'm not making a point about any class..." and "(w)ithout making any comment about the standard of those two classes".
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tickel View Drop Down
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Posts: 408 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tickel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 10:26am
Thank you Chris.....I did mean that but I forgot to say it.
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Roger View Drop Down
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Posts: 524 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 10:28am
Originally posted by G.R.F.


 
It's why the Olympics is more difficult to win than say a world championships.
 
 
 
Sorry but I'd say your wrong on that one, the Olympic regatta is a unique event due to the one representative from each nation rule, I've heard it said several times before that once you've qualified it's easier to win an Olympic title than a worlds. (for many the qualification process is the hardest part)
 
Quite often there is a glut of talent in a fleet from one country, currently you could look at the Finn and the UK talent that exists. It is argueable that Ben's greatest competition at a Finn (Gold Cup) Worlds, would come from the other GBR sailors, if however he is chosen as the Olympic representative then that competition will not be present at the event.
 
The rest of your argument is pretty true, although another angle may well be the ability of some sailors to do well in large fleets, while others who compete on equal terms in smaller fleets seem to fall apart in the 70+ boat fleets, it's a mental thing for sure, but does have a huge impact on some results.
 
 
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 1:55pm
Looking at the names at the top end of the Solo fleet, I suspect that certain fleets attract the pro and semi pro sailors, and in those you'll get a very high top end standard. Certainly higher than the Lightning, though I'd like to think we do OK!
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tickel View Drop Down
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Posts: 408 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tickel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 2:52pm
I think you do Rupert! I think you do! (but then I would say that wouldn't I)!!

Mind you you should see the Byte fleet!!
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by Roger

Originally posted by G.R.F.


 
It's why the Olympics is more difficult to win than say a world championships.
 
 
 
Sorry but I'd say your wrong on that one, the Olympic regatta is a unique event due to the one representative from each nation rule, I've heard it said several times before that once you've qualified it's easier to win an Olympic title than a worlds. (for many the qualification process is the hardest part)
 
Quite often there is a glut of talent in a fleet from one country, currently you could look at the Finn and the UK talent that exists. It is argueable that Ben's greatest competition at a Finn (Gold Cup) Worlds, would come from the other GBR sailors, if however he is chosen as the Olympic representative then that competition will not be present at the event.
 
The rest of your argument is pretty true, although another angle may well be the ability of some sailors to do well in large fleets, while others who compete on equal terms in smaller fleets seem to fall apart in the 70+ boat fleets, it's a mental thing for sure, but does have a huge impact on some results.
 

Hmm maybe in sailing you could be correct, but that's only because of our ability to bring East German style resources to bear in order to simply out gun the opposition, not so in say windsurfing where the overseas competitors are of probably a higher standard from better depth fleets than other sailing nations.
And in my arrogance I'm obviously thinking from a strong competitors stand point where you know who your key threats are coming from and understand their strengths and weaknesses and there are likely to only be a few of them, hence you need fleet depth to sink them in. With only one competitor per country you won't for instance get an entire French squad (of cheating b'stards)to deal with, it may have changed, the rules may have been tightened these days, I'm probably speaking from an era long gone, but on a national v local level I bet it's still just as true today as it was in my day.

You could win in a 250 strong fleet one weekend of the very best there was yet still get taken apart on Wraysbury lake by some retarded child with a sun tan who only place 152nd.
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Posts: 615 		Post Options Post Options   Quote timeintheboat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by tickel



I have previously observed that all fleets weather big or small all divide the same. A few at the top with a chance of winning, a large average group then some tail enders out for fun.


So true and thanks goodness for that.  I suppose it must be possible to be a bit more quantitative by looking at the spread of results in say the top 10 of the 40+ fleets, or looking at what is the lowest position someone doing all the races is that got a top 10.

Most of us non-hot shots know who the usual suspects are and are prone to pecking order fever, but  relish the occasional nose bleed and having more boats behind than in front. And of course working your way though a big fleets where everyone can handle the conditions is nigh-on impossible.

What is probably a thousand years ago now I still recall being 4th to the windward mark at a big fireball Nationals, something like 34th at the gybe mark and in the toilet for the week overall - but what a feeling - 4th eh!! I've a few of those memories that stick out way more than a mid-fleet mauling all week.
Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Roger

I've heard it said several times before that once you've qualified it's easier to win an Olympic title than a worlds.

I've heard it said too, but never by an Olympic Medallist...
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