Classes Table Discussion
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8288
Printed Date: 12 Jul 25 at 3:24pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Classes Table Discussion
Posted By: G.R.F.
Subject: Classes Table Discussion
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 9:16am
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Following on from the Phantom is thriving thread, I'd have though what was more pertinent is what's suddenly going on with the Contender.. A couple of years ago we had none and now we have 6 in our club, the nationals this year appeared to have doubled, was this due to a favourable venue or weather? What's going on? Then the other subject coming from that table is the fact there are now more classes than there are on average competitors competing in them, shouldn't this mean some sort of action is taken? Apart from it being a bit meaningless calling yourself a National Champion when twenty boats or less compete, the dilution surely doesn't do anyone any good. Should it not be a pre requisite before you get listed or continue to get listed that you have a minimum number of competitors? Anyway, two points I'm sure this thread could derive some excellent discussion on what maybe ought to happen to drag dinghy sailing out of the depths of the early twentieth century here well into the twenty-first. Anyway back then to my first point if ever there were a Carpe Diem moment for you Contender boys it's now, reduce the weight, change the rig and you could rule, my guess it's the lack of anything else that works with a trapeze. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Replies:
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 9:34am
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There's more to class racing than the Nationals. It's just an easy indicator to stick in a table. What do we want from a class? In my case it's accessible, level racing locally, plus some open meetings to go to. I'm not committed enough to worry about my overall score in the travellers series, but having a good fixture list is important. Having a class start at Fed week (our local big regatta week) is a big plus point too. Also, in terms of enjoyable fleet racing, I prefer a fleet of 25 boats to compete in, rather than 50 or 75. A huge fleet may look good on paper, and be great if you're in the top 3, but it doesn't necessarily offer the best sailing for everyone. You also need to think about the achievement level of the fleet. No point being the only overweight middle aged club sailors in a fleet of Olympians or vice versa. |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 9:36am
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n'ah b**locks- diversity is good, sail a boat you want to sail and embrace the full potential of an ever-improving handicap system by actually using PY as properly intended- most clubs / regattas don't.
look at your signature - Alto and V-Twin - neither would exist if dinghyland was even more prescriptive than it currently is already. |
Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 9:49am
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The table gets skewed when you have a Worlds or International event either part of your Nationals or imediatly before.
Plenty of examples in the mix, I know in the Albacore in 05 some 70 odd boats for the Nationals, but the following year....
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 10:12am
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I don't think it's fair to say there were no contenders a couple of years ago. From what I remember the nationals that year were at Pwheli, the forecast was for very light winds, so lots of people didn't go. Last yeat the Nationals were at Whitby and the forecast was for very strong winds, so again, turnout wasn't brilliant. Open meeting turnouts have been pretty steady over the last few years, and obviously better this year because we hosted the Worlds at the Olympic venue. A lot of the pr from this will demonstrate how truly international the class is, so hopefully the good times will continue. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 10:20am
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In terms of carpe diem, there is much discussion going on regarding building in epoxy, which might well be a good thing, but why change the rig? We have decent carbon spars and a healthy choice of sail materials, so why fiddle with a proven formula? I think grumpf you need to improve your knowledge of the class and get a grasp of how successful it truly is before you suggest changes that are neither necessary nor productive! (and the offer is still there for a trip in my boat should you wisely choose to broaden your horizons) In terms of diversity I agree with James; if we didn't have all the idiosyncratic little classes, of which I seem to have gained a fair few lately, then dinghy development would stall completely. I have a classic low rider moth, cherub and i14, all classes that have contributed massively to what has happened in dinghy design. If someone had said back in the sixties or sevemties that we had too many classes and tried to halt the spread we might well have missed out on these gems. I think if a minor class is good enough it will succeed in the long term, like so many have done. If the class isn't good enough then economics and personal choice will take their toll. Survival of the fittest. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 10:48am
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I think the success of the Contender is that it has not changed much. This makes it accessible internationally and via an affordable secondhand market. If you don't like it, better to design something new as GRF has done, rather than warming it over in a Ford-sierra facelift excercise. Anyone remember the Rondar proposal for a new rig, about 15 years ago? With x years of experience from Contenders, RS600, 700's MPS's and others, I would hope it was possible to design an all-round improvement, but only at the expense of obsoleting the class stock. When I sailed one years ago, the class was quite defensive about the 'new' RS600. I think the Contender is better placed than the 600 now? You have to balance our interest in Development with our interest in actually racing what we have. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 10:51am
The full potential of the PY system is basically enjoy it on the water and rant about bandits on here. When the 'is the PY right today' debate is as long as the race I lose interest. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 10:57am
Different classes are sailed by different people in different circumstances, so probably have different criteria for success. If there are 5 or 10 boats enjoying great racing in one place, that can be as much 'success' as 100 boats scattered around GB only coming together for the Nationals once a year. It may be more likely to stand the test of time. Of course builders will measure success in boats sold, owners may measure success by number of years/weekends/whatever good racing from one boat bought? |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 11:20am
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there is perhaps something in this- to have an official World or even European Championships, the class has to meet certain ISAF critera, and file yearly reports to justify retaining the status. Now, there are those who may say that the criterea are too lax and that some classes are not deserving of being able to declare a World Champion, but you take that one up with ISAF.
Many classes that don't meet the criterea hold "Eurocup" or "Interncontinental Championship" etc events that are often little more than "brits abroad with a couple of token locals"- there's nothing wrong with this, who doesn't like to go somewhere warmer and sunnier to sail?
Anyway, perhaps there should be a place for the RYA here to have criterea for "National Champions"- though i'm not sure what then to call smaller classes events that don't meet the criterea but still mean something to those who take part?
I appreciate though that whilst sailing may be extreme in it's proliferation, how many track and field athletics "National Champions" are there, especially given that there are many age categroies (and not just for kids), something that's a bit rarer in sailing? ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: chrisg
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 12:31pm
Or if your class isn't numerous enough but still want to hold an "official" World Championship you could find another organising body that will allow you to hold a world champs without all the ISAF red tape, even though you might use ISAF stuff for your event, say rules perhaps. International Canoes anyone?? (It might not be as simplistic as I make out and apologies if that post offends anyone or info contained within is incorrect or way wide of the mark, it is merely a quite probably ill informed observation, rather than a critiscism, and as such may be completely incorrrect. I have nothing against the canoes and personally dont mind who their world champs is held under). Jim or Bob or any other canoe sailors please feel free to correct me if I've said something wrong... ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 12:42pm
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Canoes are such an old class they pre-date the formation of the YRA (now RYA) and the IYRU which developed from it. Sensibly, they stuck to their roots. Open canoe sailing also is part of canoeing, not sailing - I'm not sure they even use the same set of rules, exactly. Rather more relaxed, I think. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 12:49pm
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Personally, the way I look at it is this:-
If a number of boats from a single nation decide to get together to have a champs, then you have a National Championship. Same for Europeans (multiple nationalities accross Europe), and the same for Worlds.
What the hell does the ISAF have to do with it. ------------- 12ft Skiff - Gordon Keeble and the Furry Fly-by AC - GBR271 - Whoosh B49 - Island Alchemy |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 12:50pm
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I think the IC meets the ISAF crtiterea anyway- the number of countries/continents the boat is actively sailed in isn't the same thing as the attendees to the champs. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 1:17pm
total agree... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 1:23pm
Whether the ISAF do this job well is another question entirely, but to me the concept of an umbrella organization is a good one. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 1:35pm
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The Canoe is adminstered by the int Canoe Federation and uses their rules for what counts as a World champs. Number of nations participating at the champs is key i believe
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Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 3:03pm
yes they provide a useful service to RYAs of this world. But that doesn't give them authority over the definition of language. If a group of sailors want to run an international event and call it their World Championship then it's up to them.... good luck at least they're doing something they enjoy. I will assess the credibility it deserves based on my own assessment for my own opinion, and not be told by ISAF what constitutes a recognised class 'world championship'. |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 3:18pm
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How did this get to be about Canoes? I dunno away from my keyboard for a few hours and herrings from the warm end of the spectrum end up everywhere. Wing wang I didn't mean there were no Contenders, they just didn't exist in our club and now we've got lots of them, apparently back in the day Hythe was a bit of a Contender stronghold I've since been informed. And now we're setting tiny little tight reach courses in strong winds for some reason, I wonder why. As to the class table debate I thought might occur was concerning how many were actually considered classes and how many are just moribund 'gatherings' like say L4k's and L3k's for that matter, there must be more, but no way of knowing for the newcomer. He might look at that list and go hey that so and so class is good they've just jumped 60 at their nationals this year. So maybe an adjudicated overview would help thin them out and focus folk on classes that are actually going somewhere for real and by that it means National and local events and boats being built regularly, with spares available without a drama (which precludes just about everyone except RS.) ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 3:23pm
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seems like you need to read JimC's annual thread after the classes review guide.
It's a better judge of 'activity' than the Nationals league table. Who gives a crap how many Musto Skiff sailors can take a whole week and two weekends off work and family duties and to go to their Nationals in Mounts Bay? But I'd rather know about how many new boats are being built, how many weekend events there are, what the training offering is like... this is the true measure of success. |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 3:36pm
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I think it would also be interesting to find out how many paid up members of class associations there are. For instance Lasers sell in thousands but how many actually join the association. Phantoms and solo's sell in high numbers (relative to the dinghy market) but i bet their proportion of class membership is pretty high. ------------- |
Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 4:21pm
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Russ
As well you certainly know with the 5oh Nats - no pay (your association membership), no play (the Nats)
For me this is a good thing - for without the association, you have no-one organising these things. Perhaps the question should be how to get more people joining the association (but perhaps this should be another thread) ------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss Crew on 505 8780 |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 4:43pm
Yep that would be more useful if you were looking at just plain buying a boat and what to recommend to a chum. Also the criterion folk actually apply to buying boats is probably nothing like the old realities of does it have a class association, are there events to go to. It's more like Price. Portability. Price Durability Price Ease of Use. None of which are really catered for by that chart or anything else the mag offers (make mental note to ring Mark) joe uninformed public. I accept there aint many but we get literally loads walking by the promenade on a pleasant day asking, what do you say? We usually tell them about Dover Watersports Centre to feck them off because the 10 minute gun's about to go, but in all reality there ought to be more simplified stuff for them to use. Lets face it left to the polyethylene tub mill of holiday centres it's not going to be long before the supply of half decent production craft for racing totally dries up, or worse we just get left with legacy crap like Solo's ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 4:51pm
| The supply of decent cars and bikes for track racing has never dried up but increasingly its from small specialist suppliers not the mass market. Don't see why racing boats should be any different in the long term. We've already seen most mass producers abandon high end racing boats. |
Posted By: hum3
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 5:45pm
Rather a single organisational body to look after such matters (irrespective of how well they might perform this function) than the free for all that boxing seems to be in where there really are multiple 'champions'
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 6:06pm
Yes point taken and fully agree, but the prime market force that newcomers face as their number one objection is that chart, if they aint on it (Alto) they struggle to get traction. So for the big player void to be filled there needs to be a different measure against which racing boats can be recommended. Right now sadly it's either that chart, Banditry or the sort of marketing muscle only wielded by one solitary player...
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 6:39pm
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For a while a few years ago Y&Y ran a series on boat types at the back of each magazine, with a description and ideas on whom the boat might suit.
Have to agree that Natonals turn out is a poor measure of success for a class, especially those where racing is only a part of what they do. Number of new boats built is also poor, as an old class with a strong 2nd hand market won't sell as many as a new class with no 2nd hand boats, maybe, but as a class will be far stronger.
Dunno what the best measure is - probebly there isn't one, unless you can measure the enjoyment people get from a boat, quantify it and then measure potential buyers to find out if they have similar brain wave pattens... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 6:48pm
I don't think it's good advice for a newcomer to buy a non-established class. I cringe when I see beginners turn up with what some salesman at a show has foisted on them. Most newcomers should be able to buy an established class that meets their needs well enough. When they can sail a Vision/Vareo/Vago (or any accessible class) competently, they will have learned enough to make a choice on a more specialised boat. Most people would be well advised to start with a used boat, and I think that's often what happens. Most of the people who buy a new boat in the 'proper racing classes' are not new to that class, let alone new to sailing I think? Obviously things like RS100 have people joining the class with a brand new boat, but these are people who know what's going on more than is told by the table. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 10:03pm
Tend to agree that there could be some control over the "national title" label, or else it can become a bit silly. I've done a "nationals" in a fleet of 7 boats and it felt totally different to a "real" nationals and getting a trophy was rather embarrassing. Take it too far and it becomes nothing more than grandstanding. Good point about track and field. My other sport, cycling, has about 40 national/world title disciplines WITHOUT covering the age, gender and disability categories. Many events have about 10 age categories, as well as gender and disabled classifications. Add the latter in - and counting them separately seems fair because unlike the situation in sailing, they are normally separate events rather than a sub-class - and we'd have something like around 200 "championships" in track alone, as far as I can see! I've often wondered if ISAF and other bodies could try to use some lateral thinking to allow diversity while reducing the splintering of the sport. We could respond by grouping classes in various ways; for example, perhaps the Solo could have a worlds IF it encouraged entries from the Aussie Sabre, the NZ Mistral, and any other class with similar characteristics. Perhaps even stronger classes could form a mega-series; the Europe/OK/Finn could form three weight class/weight categories of the "standard singlehander" division internationally. There are many other classes that are basically reasonably similar that have pockets of strength around the world. Perhaps they could say that (for example) the borderline international classes can only maintain world title status if they come to some deal to encourage those from classes that are similar but not international to compete. And maybe something similar could be done at national level - the 9 "Puddle ODs" could have a nationals but only if they were the lightweight sub-division of the "two handed non spinnaker combined" nationals, along with the 12 roughly similar "Dodo 13s" and the 10 "Nevermadeit 4.1s". Obviously there are major problems in adopting such a plan, but there are also problems in doing nothing as new classes arrive and few old ones die. PS Just for my own convenience, I've listed most of the cycle overall events I've counted below where I can find them easily later. 4 divisions of artistic cycling 1 cyclo ball discipline Scratch race 10km Points race 20km Points race 15km Points race 5 km Points race 25km Points race 40km Individual pursuit Teams pursuit 3000m team pursuit Keirin Team sprint Omnium BMX Sprocket? BMX Cruiser? 2000 m Individual pursuit 3000m Individual pursuit 4000m Individual pursuit MTB Four Cross MTB trials, 20 inch (at worlds, dunno about national level) MTB trials, 26 inch (ditto) MTB Teams relay (more dittoing) MTB Marathon MTB CX MTB Downhill BMX freestyle Dirt BMX Freestyle flatland BMX freestyle Park/Street BMX Freestyle Vert Road Mountain Climbing Road race Road Mountain climbing Time Trial Road race Road time trial Road team time trial Road criterium Penny farthings Team sprint 1 k time trial |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 11:44pm
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Most of those cycle events will no doubt have junior, youth, masters, ladies etc Champions- very few sailing classes have separate designated age or gender competitions (though many will award such titles from among the general entry) ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 7:48am
AIUI from my dad, it used to be the case (back in the dawn of time) that only national and international classes could hold nationals. Hence National 12, National Hornet etc (full list http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/equipmentclasses/nationalclasses/Pages/national-classes.aspx - here ), and unless a class was recognised as such by the RYA, it wasn't allowed to hold a national champs.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 8:37am
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I think some of the International classes were National at various times. This would apply to Fourteens, Fireballs, Enterprise? others? Have classes lost their national status? But maybe we are drifting from the point. I think people want to keep an eye on trends in most classes, it doesn't hurt to have data from a few obscure ones. Webspace is not rationed like magazine pages. |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 12:09pm
The 12 isn't on that list! But perhaps a return to that situation wouldn't be an awful thing. I'd allow everything with ISAF International status to hold Nationals, regardless of distrubution and numbers, but for other boats some sort of measure of how widely they're sailed (not just the attendence at nationals and Traveller series) should be used- if PY returns weren't so patchy they'd be useful for this, along with notes of club OD fleet sizes. For instance, the Sandhopper keelboat really shouldn't be able to declare a "national Champion" given that it is barely sailed outside of two clubs in Essex little over ten miles apart (as the crow flies)- there's several more, mainly in the keelboats it has to be said. It would cause upset though, to "ban" nationals for small classes. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: oldarn
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 12:37pm
AltOboats is certainly a specialist supplier. It has been designed by dinghy sailors and is now being run by AltO owners. No owners of new boats bought since launch of the prototype AltO in 2008, have sold their boat throughout our thorough two/three year testing period. I wonder what percentage of RS100 new owners have sold theit boat? At the recent Pyfleet Week we, the class, were happy that the boat more than met the design criteria and that all systems were now fully tested and were without problems, unlike many of the recent flood of new mass produced classes rushed onto the market to meet accounting commitments. We are now moving into our expansion phase. A facebook group is just being formed and the website now undergoing changes will reflect that we are a new niche class which is here for the future. We would like to believe that the AltO class is creating a new specialist class format to be part of the twenty first century dinghy racing scene and the new financial climate. ------------- thefastexcitingrunningasymmetric |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 2:12pm
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I think the Alto has an uphill struggle. It's a tough climate, and there are plenty of choices in the two handed, single trapeze field. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, as it looks a nice boat. At least the RS100 owners were able to sell their boats for a reasonable return. |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 2:16pm
I'm afraid those stats aren't in the public domain, I'd guess 20-25% of the first 100 'special offer boats' are now onto their second owner within their second year, but I could be wrong. What is in the public domain (and keeping within the class nationals stats) is that 25 of 43 sailors who competed in the nationals in 2010, have either sold on or choose not to attend the 2011 Nationals- that's a 44% retention rate from one nationals to the next 
Fortunately RS sold enough to get the overall numbers for 2011 back to 46. Is this a high attrition rate... who knows, can't really tell much from nationals attendance, but a growth of only 3 net competitors despite another 150+ boats out there doesn't look great. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 2:36pm
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46/250 is not bad by most standards. Apart from x-boats at Cowes, who has a better ratio? Too early to judge the 100 I'd say. You have to take into account that the first 100 boats were sold with just a trial sail here and there, the class had zero miles on the clock, hardly surprising some people decided to move on. |
Posted By: oldarn
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 2:38pm
Of course it won't be easy in the present economic climate and yes its tough out there, but, I'm interested in your comment that there is plenty of choice. What choice sub PY 950 and asymmetric that is in productions, is it just the 5O5 at twice the price? ------------- thefastexcitingrunningasymmetric |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 3:16pm
+1 and the point about trial sails here and there is very true. It's certainly morphed into more of a thoroughbred than initially presented. £10k for a new boat would support this too. |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 3:29pm
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but the 100 had to morph into something that wasn't a vareo so it was always going to end up where it did - or am i being niave? ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 3:31pm
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Anyone noticed the laser Vago Nats write up just appear on Y&Y reports. 12 boats This is an ISAF International Class BTW So RYA National or ISAF International status means sweet FA frankly. Although the good news is that Laser are now selling the Lateen rigged ISAF International Sunfish. Please contain your excitement...
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Posted By: ob1
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 3:40pm
| cant believe the RRP for the Laser XD = £5,191not so cheap as compared to the the higher tech newer boats |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 3:46pm
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£5191 Laser : expected nasty 5-ring pricing premium really biting now eh? Sunfish here we come!
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 5:46pm
RS400? OK no trapeze, but you weren't sure you wanted that anyway.... Laser 4000 29er B14 A used 505 is a good option too. That's just the ones I like. Of course if you want a boat that will run straight downwind, then a conventional kite still works. Lots of good racing in Merlins, Fireballs and the like. Again it's a balance between fair, level racing and absolute boatspeed. I would be interested to see how the swinging sprit is working out in PY racing, but also what it would be like racing Alto vs Alto tactically downwind. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 8:36pm
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Let people have their Nats win, whatever the size or quality. If you've worked for 20 years and finally pull it off in the Sandhoppers then good luck to you. But just let the Nats attendance table and the reports in Y&Y and elsewhere act as the quanitive and qualitive means of assessing the worth of a fleet's Nats. That and the Club House Beer takings at teh venue
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Posted By: Xpletive
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 10:05pm
| I'm not sure I like the inference in these posts that a winner in a large fleet must be superior to a winner in a smaller fleet. I can think of plenty of extremely average members of large RS fleets who can be easily embarrassed in handicap events by sailors of less 'sexy' boats. If you remove all the 'dross' from those large Nationals entries, you might end up with something resembling the concentration of enthusiastic members of classes whose nationals attendance numbers are not similarly swelled. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 10:19pm
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People in big fleets mistaking quantity for quality, thats all. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 10:56pm
How I agree with you. Lightning Nationals this year, a disappointing 17 boats but all racing very close. Sailors who dropped from the leading group back into the pack struggled to escape. At the same time the Supernova Inlands was taking place, 36 boats spread throughout the course. I was spectating but with a keen personal interest. ------------- tickel |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 2:52am
On the other hand, the inference that the average person in a large fleet is dumber/less experienced/not as keen etc as the average person in a small fleet isn't particularly great, either. Surely simple probability indicates very strongly that a fleet of 10 sailors is less likely to have a large number of high-class performers than a fleet of 200 sailors. So while numbers alone are not proof that a class is of a particular standard, surely there is a relationship between numbers and the probability of a high standard? There seem to be fairly few incidents of people leaping out of a small class into a major one and blowing everyone away, as far as I can recall. Of course there are also successful people from prestige classes who move into a supposed small low-key class and getting walloped, as well. Having said that, of the classes I've recently sailed, one with comparatively small numbers had an arguably higher AVERAGE standard than those with very large numbers, and attracted some true world-class sailors. However, those at the top end of the big class trained a lot harder than those at the top of the small class; Olympians who moved into the small class on occasions ended up winning, whereas an Olympian moving into the bigger class finished about 25th. The reason the average sailor in the smaller class may have been better seemed to be because that class was dwindling and didn't attract people who moved into the sport. The back end of some big classes may be "dross" in some ways, but surely the noobs and social sailors are vital to the health of the sport. Having said all that, I can't tell how well I am sailing in class "A" compared to the way I've sailed in class "B" or "C". If someone from inside the classes can't tell how well they sail one type compared to the other, then how can someone outside a class assess how well the boats are sailed?
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 3:07am
Without making any comment about the standard of those two classes, as a general point of discussion, is the closeness of the fleet necessarily a particularly good indication of the standard of the class? A couple of the classes I sail are sometimes dominated by one or two sailors, but they are current Olympians (as distinct from the ex-Olympians who a regulars in these classes). Not surprisingly, world champs in full pre-Olympic training normally go pretty well, and dominate results. If the current Olympians aren't racing, the fleets are closer together - but the standard is actually lower. Surely similar things can occur in other classes? A classic case was in the Laser nats down here recently - one year, the winner drops a first to take a perfect score and win by 20 points. The next year the winner wins only 25% of the races and there's so much match racing that the top 2 sailors lodge 7 protests in one race. Both events have similar fleet numbers and about a dozen internationals. The same guy was second both times. The first year was clearly a walkover, but it was performed by the ISAF sailor of the year, ranked #1 in the world. The next year he didn't turn up and the event went to the guy ranked #39 in the world. So the one with the closer racing clearly had a lower standard of competition. I've also noticed that in motorsport, lower categories often have closer scores than (say) F1 or MotoGP, because the once-in-a-generation geniuses like Schumacher end up at racing in the premiere class. It's just standard bell curve stuff. Please let me make it clear I'm not making a point about any class, just musing about a subject that interests me. |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 9:13am
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Please ear in mind that I was spectating at the Lightning Nationals and even with my limited experience I was capable of judging standards and abilities. It would seem however that the regular sailors who were not there were the competitors less likely to do well.
I have previously observed that all fleets weather big or small all divide the same. A few at the top with a chance of winning, a large average group then some tail enders out for fun. If your sister is getting married, the weather is crap or the wind is extreme the good guys will continue when the average will stay in the bar or attend the church. Big fleets seem to be caused by boats that are fairly easy and trouble free and that have the advantage of commercial promotion. ------------- tickel |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 9:45am
No nor do I, I don't like the term superior in any inter human discussion personally, but getting back to fleet and fleet size, if you're good, big fleets are far easier to win than small, because your competitors errors are magnified. In a small fleet a competitor can make a bad judgement call, get a duff shift, yet still be next man round or next but one man round and with little negative influence to distance him from you in the event of your own inevitable clangour. So small fleets magnify the board/boat/body weight advantage-disadvantage in relation to your position over the water. Get a good start and first beat with your particular opponents ( if you think of them in single figures) separated from you by dozens of boats and they're less likely to trouble you, do the same in a small fleet and they'll be on you like a bad rash if they or they're kits faster than you. (You can tell I only won stuff by tactics not board speed). Now none of this makes you any better or lessor person it's more down to physics at the end of the day and/or mind over matter. (assuming of course that you've done what it takes to compete on even terms of course) It's why the Olympics is more difficult to win than say a world championships.
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 10:15am
Sure, but please note as I said in the earlier post; "Please let me make it clear I'm not making a point about any class..." and "(w)ithout making any comment about the standard of those two classes". |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 10:26am
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Thank you Chris.....I did mean that but I forgot to say it. ------------- tickel |
Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 10:28am
Sorry but I'd say your wrong on that one, the Olympic regatta is a unique event due to the one representative from each nation rule, I've heard it said several times before that once you've qualified it's easier to win an Olympic title than a worlds. (for many the qualification process is the hardest part) Quite often there is a glut of talent in a fleet from one country, currently you could look at the Finn and the UK talent that exists. It is argueable that Ben's greatest competition at a Finn (Gold Cup) Worlds, would come from the other GBR sailors, if however he is chosen as the Olympic representative then that competition will not be present at the event. The rest of your argument is pretty true, although another angle may well be the ability of some sailors to do well in large fleets, while others who compete on equal terms in smaller fleets seem to fall apart in the 70+ boat fleets, it's a mental thing for sure, but does have a huge impact on some results. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 1:55pm
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Looking at the names at the top end of the Solo fleet, I suspect that certain fleets attract the pro and semi pro sailors, and in those you'll get a very high top end standard. Certainly higher than the Lightning, though I'd like to think we do OK! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 2:52pm
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I think you do Rupert! I think you do! (but then I would say that wouldn't I)!!
Mind you you should see the Byte fleet!! ------------- tickel |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 4:06pm
Hmm maybe in sailing you could be correct, but that's only because of our ability to bring East German style resources to bear in order to simply out gun the opposition, not so in say windsurfing where the overseas competitors are of probably a higher standard from better depth fleets than other sailing nations. And in my arrogance I'm obviously thinking from a strong competitors stand point where you know who your key threats are coming from and understand their strengths and weaknesses and there are likely to only be a few of them, hence you need fleet depth to sink them in. With only one competitor per country you won't for instance get an entire French squad (of cheating b'stards)to deal with, it may have changed, the rules may have been tightened these days, I'm probably speaking from an era long gone, but on a national v local level I bet it's still just as true today as it was in my day. You could win in a 250 strong fleet one weekend of the very best there was yet still get taken apart on Wraysbury lake by some retarded child with a sun tan who only place 152nd. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 4:22pm
So true and thanks goodness for that. I suppose it must be possible to be a bit more quantitative by looking at the spread of results in say the top 10 of the 40+ fleets, or looking at what is the lowest position someone doing all the races is that got a top 10. Most of us non-hot shots know who the usual suspects are and are prone to pecking order fever, but relish the occasional nose bleed and having more boats behind than in front. And of course working your way though a big fleets where everyone can handle the conditions is nigh-on impossible. What is probably a thousand years ago now I still recall being 4th to the windward mark at a big fireball Nationals, something like 34th at the gybe mark and in the toilet for the week overall - but what a feeling - 4th eh!! I've a few of those memories that stick out way more than a mid-fleet mauling all week. ------------- Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 4:41pm
I've heard it said too, but never by an Olympic Medallist... |
Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 4:52pm
I remember it from an interview with an Olympic Gold Medallist but can't remember whether it was Rodney Pattison or Paul Elvstrom being interviewed. ------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: Alto-Tim
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 9:22pm
 RS400
ok, a bit tiresome on the legs, especially on a long beat or close reach,But
a nice boat. I couldn't afford one new. And has just changed to this vinylester construction like the Alto I hear?.
Do people worry about the weight equalisation at clubs? They probably don't, I guess open meetings and nationals they will.Oh no we’ve got to pull it up the beach again, bit heavy.Can you buy a new Laser 4000?. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 9:50pm
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The RS400 and Laser 4000 bowsprits only pivot to something like 20degrees. That 20 degrees makes a big difference on the 400, but it's small beer compared to the Alto, where the pole comes back what, 60 degrees at least? So that interests me. How often does it make a big difference? Yes I understand your point about hiking, but like a lot of couples, my crew is not keen to trapeze. Anyway, surely the helm still has to exert himself? If you're going to have a trapeze, why not go all the way and get an RS800? Helming from the wire is not that hard if everything works. Personally, I'm happy to buy a used boat rather than compromise (more) on other things. Yes, it all costs money, but I see the yearly cost of a 400 and another boat as affordable if you avoid the first year depreciation. It would take more than a new boat to get me to the front of a nationals fleet anyway! I suspect I'm not alone in that I could buy a new boat if I really, really wanted to, but I don't see it as right for me at this point. I like to see new designs like the Alto, but equally I want leve racing. Catch 22? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 10:03pm
Gybing downwind and sailing hot angles predates asymettrics by about twenty years... |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 10:06pm
Price of sails is hardly different to any other class of a similar speed and type, Prices of boats £17k will buy you a new carbon boat. Sounds a lot but its full carbon and will last longer competitively then most other boats. The thing is with a 5o5 you don't need to buy new to be competitive, but if you do invest in a new boat (from £17-£25k) you are getting a truly quality product. The fit outs on the Jess German boats are second to none, a real piece of artistic engineering. You get what you pay for in this life! Price for the informed is obviously not an issue either, just look how many sell round the world, look at the ages(sail numbers) in the fleet at any world championships and nationals for that matter. ------------- |
Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 10:55pm
A 30 year old wood/epoxy Osprey is still capable of winning the nationals, will probably see you out and can be bought for less than 2 grand. ------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 17 Sep 11 at 8:26am
Not quite the same thing, the Osprey does not allow carbon hulls IIRC, therefore the cost new is a hell of a lot cheaper, and a wooden boat would be competitive, simple! Not the same in the 505's the rules allow more exotic materials to be used in hulls, i still think it will out last any composite Osprey and even a wooden boat if it is not stored indoors every winter. ------------- |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 17 Sep 11 at 9:39am
As Jim mentioned, tacking downwind was well known before assys. A LONG time before, in fact - as I sit here I'm looking at a mention of the technique in 1931, from ocean racing navigator Alf Loomis. Since 505s are mentioned, I may mention that Westell himself wrote in (IIRC) 1958 that tacking downwind was normal in 505s in anything but the lightest breezes.
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