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fab100 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Classes Table Discussion
    Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 3:31pm
Anyone noticed the laser Vago Nats write up just appear on Y&Y reports.

12 boats

This is an ISAF International Class BTW

So RYA National or ISAF International status means sweet FA frankly. Although the good news is that Laser are now selling the Lateen rigged ISAF International Sunfish. Please contain your excitement...
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ob1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ob1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 3:40pm
cant believe the RRP for the Laser XD = £5,191
not so cheap as compared to the the higher tech newer boats
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 3:46pm
£5191 Laser : expected nasty 5-ring pricing premium really biting now eh?

Sunfish here we come!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by oldarn

Originally posted by RS400atC

I think the Alto has an uphill struggle.
It's a tough climate, and there are plenty of choices in the two handed, single trapeze field.
I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, as it looks a nice boat.


Of course it won't be easy in the present economic climate and yes its tough out there, but,  I'm interested in your comment that there is plenty of choice. What choice sub PY 950 and asymmetric that is in productions, is it just the 5O5 at twice the price?

RS400? OK no trapeze, but you weren't sure you wanted that anyway....
Laser 4000
29er
B14

A used 505 is a good option too.
That's just the ones I like.

Of course if you want a boat that will run straight downwind, then a conventional kite still works.
Lots of good racing in Merlins, Fireballs and the like.
Again it's a balance between fair, level racing and absolute boatspeed.

I would be interested to see how the swinging sprit is working out in PY racing, but also what it would be like racing Alto vs Alto tactically downwind.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 8:36pm
Let people have their Nats win, whatever the size or quality.  If you've worked for 20 years and finally pull it off in the Sandhoppers then good luck to you.  But just let the Nats attendance table and the reports in Y&Y and elsewhere act as the quanitive and qualitive means of assessing the worth of a fleet's Nats.
 
That and the Club House Beer takings at teh venue
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Xpletive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 10:05pm
I'm not sure I like the inference in these posts that a winner in a large fleet must be superior to a winner in a smaller fleet. I can think of plenty of extremely average members of large RS fleets who can be easily embarrassed in handicap events by sailors of less 'sexy' boats. If you remove all the 'dross' from those large Nationals entries, you might end up with something resembling the concentration of enthusiastic members of classes whose nationals attendance numbers are not similarly swelled.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 10:19pm

People in big fleets mistaking quantity for quality, thats all.

Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tickel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 11 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by Xpletive

I'm not sure I like the inference in these posts that a winner in a large fleet must be superior to a winner in a smaller fleet. I can think of plenty of extremely average members of large RS fleets who can be easily embarrassed in handicap events by sailors of less 'sexy' boats. If you remove all the 'dross' from those large Nationals entries, you might end up with something resembling the concentration of enthusiastic members of classes whose nationals attendance numbers are not similarly swelled.


How I agree with you. Lightning Nationals this year, a disappointing 17 boats but all racing very close. Sailors who dropped from the leading group back into the pack struggled to escape. At the same time the Supernova Inlands was taking place, 36 boats spread throughout the course. I was spectating but with a keen personal interest.

tickel
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 2:52am
Originally posted by Xpletive

I'm not sure I like the inference in these posts that a winner in a large fleet must be superior to a winner in a smaller fleet. I can think of plenty of extremely average members of large RS fleets who can be easily embarrassed in handicap events by sailors of less 'sexy' boats. If you remove all the 'dross' from those large Nationals entries, you might end up with something resembling the concentration of enthusiastic members of classes whose nationals attendance numbers are not similarly swelled.

On the other hand, the inference that the average person in a large fleet is dumber/less experienced/not as keen etc as the average person in a small fleet isn't particularly great, either.

Surely simple probability indicates very strongly that a fleet of 10 sailors is less likely to have a large number of high-class performers than a fleet of 200 sailors. So while numbers alone are not proof that a class is of a particular standard, surely there is a relationship between numbers and the probability of a high standard? There seem to be fairly few incidents of people leaping out of a small class into a major one and blowing everyone away, as far as I can recall. Of course there are also successful people from prestige classes who move into a supposed small low-key class and getting walloped, as well.

Having said that, of the classes I've recently sailed, one with comparatively small numbers had an arguably higher AVERAGE standard than those with very large numbers, and attracted some true world-class sailors. However, those at the top end of the big class trained a lot harder than those at the top of the small class; Olympians who moved into the small class on occasions ended up winning, whereas an Olympian moving into the bigger class finished about 25th.

The reason the average sailor in the smaller class may have been better seemed to be because that class was dwindling and didn't attract people who moved into the sport. The back end of some big classes may be "dross" in some ways, but surely the noobs and social sailors are vital to the health of the sport.

Having said all that, I can't tell how well I am sailing in class "A" compared to the way I've sailed in class "B" or "C".  If someone from inside the classes can't tell how well they sail one type compared to the other, then how can someone outside a class assess how well the boats are sailed?
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 3:07am
Originally posted by tickel

Originally posted by Xpletive

I'm not sure I like the inference in these posts that a winner in a large fleet must be superior to a winner in a smaller fleet. I can think of plenty of extremely average members of large RS fleets who can be easily embarrassed in handicap events by sailors of less 'sexy' boats. If you remove all the 'dross' from those large Nationals entries, you might end up with something resembling the concentration of enthusiastic members of classes whose nationals attendance numbers are not similarly swelled.


How I agree with you. Lightning Nationals this year, a disappointing 17 boats but all racing very close. Sailors who dropped from the leading group back into the pack struggled to escape. At the same time the Supernova Inlands was taking place, 36 boats spread throughout the course. I was spectating but with a keen personal interest.


Without making any comment about the standard of those two classes, as a general point of discussion, is the closeness of the fleet necessarily a particularly good indication of the standard of the class?  A couple of the classes I sail are sometimes dominated by one or two sailors, but they are current Olympians (as distinct from the ex-Olympians who a regulars in these classes). Not surprisingly, world champs in full pre-Olympic training normally go pretty well, and dominate results. If the current Olympians aren't racing, the fleets are closer together - but the standard is actually lower. Surely similar things can occur in other classes? 

A classic case was in the Laser nats down here recently - one year, the winner drops a first to take a perfect score and win by 20 points.  The next year the winner wins only 25% of the races and there's so much match racing that the top 2 sailors lodge 7 protests in one race. Both events have similar fleet numbers and about a dozen internationals. The same guy was second both times.

The first year was clearly a walkover, but it was performed by the ISAF sailor of the year, ranked #1 in the world. The next year he didn't turn up and the event went to the guy ranked #39 in the world. So the one with the closer racing clearly had a lower standard of competition.

I've also noticed that in motorsport, lower categories often have closer scores than (say) F1 or MotoGP, because the once-in-a-generation geniuses like Schumacher end up at racing in the premiere class. It's just standard bell curve stuff.

Please let me make it clear I'm not making a point about any class, just musing about a subject that interests me.






Edited by Chris 249 - 16 Sep 11 at 3:41am
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