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Boats for sale
| Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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| Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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| Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Classes Table Discussion |
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Ruscoe 
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Joined: 12 Jan 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1514 |
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 Topic: Classes Table DiscussionPosted: 14 Sep 11 at 3:36pm |
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I think it would also be interesting to find out how many paid up members of class associations there are. For instance Lasers sell in thousands but how many actually join the association. Phantoms and solo's sell in high numbers (relative to the dinghy market) but i bet their proportion of class membership is pretty high.
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Contender 541
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Joined: 05 Dec 05 Location: Burton on Trent Online Status: Offline Posts: 1402 |
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Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 4:21pm |
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Russ
As well you certainly know with the 5oh Nats - no pay (your association membership), no play (the Nats)
For me this is a good thing - for without the association, you have no-one organising these things. Perhaps the question should be how to get more people joining the association (but perhaps this should be another thread)
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When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss
Crew on 505 8780 |
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G.R.F.
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Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
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Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 4:43pm |
Yep that would be more useful if you were looking at just plain buying a boat and what to recommend to a chum. Also the criterion folk actually apply to buying boats is probably nothing like the old realities of does it have a class association, are there events to go to. It's more like Price. Portability. Price Durability Price Ease of Use. None of which are really catered for by that chart or anything else the mag offers (make mental note to ring Mark) joe uninformed public. I accept there aint many but we get literally loads walking by the promenade on a pleasant day asking, what do you say? We usually tell them about Dover Watersports Centre to feck them off because the 10 minute gun's about to go, but in all reality there ought to be more simplified stuff for them to use. Lets face it left to the polyethylene tub mill of holiday centres it's not going to be long before the supply of half decent production craft for racing totally dries up, or worse we just get left with legacy crap like Solo's Edited by G.R.F. - 14 Sep 11 at 4:45pm |
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 4:51pm |
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The supply of decent cars and bikes for track racing has never dried up but increasingly its from small specialist suppliers not the mass market. Don't see why racing boats should be any different in the long term. We've already seen most mass producers abandon high end racing boats.
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hum3
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 23 Jun 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 247 |
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Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 5:45pm |
Rather a single organisational body to look after such matters (irrespective of how well they might perform this function) than the free for all that boxing seems to be in where there really are multiple 'champions'
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G.R.F.
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Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
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Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 6:06pm |
Yes point taken and fully agree, but the prime market force that newcomers face as their number one objection is that chart, if they aint on it (Alto) they struggle to get traction. So for the big player void to be filled there needs to be a different measure against which racing boats can be recommended. Right now sadly it's either that chart, Banditry or the sort of marketing muscle only wielded by one solitary player...
Edited by G.R.F. - 14 Sep 11 at 6:07pm |
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Rupert
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Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 6:39pm |
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For a while a few years ago Y&Y ran a series on boat types at the back of each magazine, with a description and ideas on whom the boat might suit.
Have to agree that Natonals turn out is a poor measure of success for a class, especially those where racing is only a part of what they do. Number of new boats built is also poor, as an old class with a strong 2nd hand market won't sell as many as a new class with no 2nd hand boats, maybe, but as a class will be far stronger.
Dunno what the best measure is - probebly there isn't one, unless you can measure the enjoyment people get from a boat, quantify it and then measure potential buyers to find out if they have similar brain wave pattens...
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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RS400atC
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Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 6:48pm |
I don't think it's good advice for a newcomer to buy a non-established class. I cringe when I see beginners turn up with what some salesman at a show has foisted on them. Most newcomers should be able to buy an established class that meets their needs well enough. When they can sail a Vision/Vareo/Vago (or any accessible class) competently, they will have learned enough to make a choice on a more specialised boat. Most people would be well advised to start with a used boat, and I think that's often what happens. Most of the people who buy a new boat in the 'proper racing classes' are not new to that class, let alone new to sailing I think? Obviously things like RS100 have people joining the class with a brand new boat, but these are people who know what's going on more than is told by the table. |
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Chris 249
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Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 10:03pm |
Tend to agree that there could be some control over the "national title" label, or else it can become a bit silly. I've done a "nationals" in a fleet of 7 boats and it felt totally different to a "real" nationals and getting a trophy was rather embarrassing. Take it too far and it becomes nothing more than grandstanding. Good point about track and field. My other sport, cycling, has about 40 national/world title disciplines WITHOUT covering the age, gender and disability categories. Many events have about 10 age categories, as well as gender and disabled classifications. Add the latter in - and counting them separately seems fair because unlike the situation in sailing, they are normally separate events rather than a sub-class - and we'd have something like around 200 "championships" in track alone, as far as I can see! I've often wondered if ISAF and other bodies could try to use some lateral thinking to allow diversity while reducing the splintering of the sport. We could respond by grouping classes in various ways; for example, perhaps the Solo could have a worlds IF it encouraged entries from the Aussie Sabre, the NZ Mistral, and any other class with similar characteristics. Perhaps even stronger classes could form a mega-series; the Europe/OK/Finn could form three weight class/weight categories of the "standard singlehander" division internationally. There are many other classes that are basically reasonably similar that have pockets of strength around the world. Perhaps they could say that (for example) the borderline international classes can only maintain world title status if they come to some deal to encourage those from classes that are similar but not international to compete. And maybe something similar could be done at national level - the 9 "Puddle ODs" could have a nationals but only if they were the lightweight sub-division of the "two handed non spinnaker combined" nationals, along with the 12 roughly similar "Dodo 13s" and the 10 "Nevermadeit 4.1s". Obviously there are major problems in adopting such a plan, but there are also problems in doing nothing as new classes arrive and few old ones die. PS Just for my own convenience, I've listed most of the cycle overall events I've counted below where I can find them easily later. 4 divisions of artistic cycling 1 cyclo ball discipline Scratch race 10km Points race 20km Points race 15km Points race 5 km Points race 25km Points race 40km Individual pursuit Teams pursuit 3000m team pursuit Keirin Team sprint Omnium BMX Sprocket? BMX Cruiser? 2000 m Individual pursuit 3000m Individual pursuit 4000m Individual pursuit MTB Four Cross MTB trials, 20 inch (at worlds, dunno about national level) MTB trials, 26 inch (ditto) MTB Teams relay (more dittoing) MTB Marathon MTB CX MTB Downhill BMX freestyle Dirt BMX Freestyle flatland BMX freestyle Park/Street BMX Freestyle Vert Road Mountain Climbing Road race Road Mountain climbing Time Trial Road race Road time trial Road team time trial Road criterium Penny farthings Team sprint 1 k time trial |
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alstorer
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Joined: 02 Aug 07 Location: Cambridge Online Status: Offline Posts: 2899 |
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Posted: 14 Sep 11 at 11:44pm |
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Most of those cycle events will no doubt have junior, youth, masters, ladies etc Champions- very few sailing classes have separate designated age or gender competitions (though many will award such titles from among the general entry)
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Al |
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