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Rule 10 or rule 18?
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jeffers View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 Aug 12 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by JohnnyJupiter

Rules committee result: I was judged not to be at fault (boat A in the diagram).  Boat B, the outside boat that called "Starboard" was judged to be at fault.  We all learned a lot from the discussion, it was friendly throughout.  The skipper of boat B offered an apology for the incident, which of course I accepted.

All your replies gave me the knowledge and confidence I needed.  I owe all of you a beer should you ever make it to the Colonies. Smile Thanks again.

And that is a good result. 

Although you should not be afraid to protest. By the nature of the word it sounds confrontational but in reality it is usually where 2 people have a differing view of the rules and a protest (or rules committee) can help sort this out and makes the racing more fun because people involved know what they should and should not do.

Just be aware that the rules change at the end of the year so best to keep an eye on the ISAF site and try to understand the changes. The Bryan Willis book on rules (usually called 'Understanding the Rule in Practice .....') is a great book to have.
Paul
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Posts: 7 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnnyJupiter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 9:23pm
Rules committee result: I was judged not to be at fault (boat A in the diagram).  Boat B, the outside boat that called "Starboard" was judged to be at fault.  We all learned a lot from the discussion, it was friendly throughout.  The skipper of boat B offered an apology for the incident, which of course I accepted.

All your replies gave me the knowledge and confidence I needed.  I owe all of you a beer should you ever make it to the Colonies. Smile Thanks again.
--JJ
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Posts: 7 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnnyJupiter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 4:40pm
Wow, that's a very clear and detailed analysis Brass.  Thank you for taking the time to provide it.  I'm in the midst of reading and assimilating the information you provided, got the rules meeting in 90 minutes...yikes!...so I'm trying to get all my ducks in a row.

I feel like I'm going before the professors for my doctoral oral exam.  I'll report on any outcome.

I did protest boat B and she protested me directly at the end of the race, but there was no follow up with a protest committee.  I think the general feeling is, and I agree, that's escalating the situation beyond what's worthwhile and casts a bit of shadow on the friendly nature of our racing.  If it had been the class championship, then perhaps there would have been more of a follow through.

I want to get this in my rear-view mirror but mostly I want to learn from it.  You guys have helped with that.  And besides, tonight I've got a race in a different class (Watch Hill 15, lovely Herreshoff design) where the stakes are higher, so I need to be clear-headed for that.
--JJ
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 4:17pm
In your original post you asked whether rule 18 'trumps' rule 10.
 
I have to disagree with PEd:  I think that to say rule 18 trumps rule 10 is quite a good way to put it.  At the expense of reciting the analysis PEd had already given, here's how.
 
C (to windward) must keep clear of A (to leeward) (rule 11).  C (port) must keep clear of B (starboard) (rule 10).
 
A (port) must keep clear of B (starboard) (rule 10).
 
A (overlapped, or clear astern when the first of them reached the zone) must give C mark-room rule 18.2( b ).
 
B (overlapped, or clear astern when the first of them reached the zone) must give A mark-room (rule 18.3( b ), and that includes room for A to  give her mark-room to C (Case 114)
 
Case 114
When a boat is entitled to room, the space she is entitled to includes space for her to keep clear of or give room to other boats when required to do so by the rules.
 
OK, so we see that C's entitlement mark-room to A conflicts with her obligation to keep clear of A, and A's entitlement to mark-room conflicts with her obligation to keep clear of B.
 
Let's assume that A gives C mark-room, and that C does not fail to keep clear of A.  The situation between A and C requires no further discussion.
 
Here's how rule 18 resolves the conflict with respect to A and B.
 
As long as A is taking mark-room to which she is entitled (that is, room to sail firstly to the mark, then, to sail her proper course at the mark (Definition:  mark-room), rule 18.5 provides that she shall be exonerated if she breaks a rule of Section A (Right of Way Rules), or, while at the mark, rules 16 (Right of way boat changing  course) or 15 (Acquiring Right of Way).
 
So, by the mechanism of exoneration, rule 18 does indeed, 'trump' the right of way rules, as long as the give way boat is taking no more room than the mark-room to which she is entitled.
 
But no other rule 'trumps' rule 14 (Avoiding Contact).
 
So there was contact between B and A.
 
If A was taking no more than the mark-room to which she was entitled, based on the diagram, it was not reasonably possible for A to avoid the contact, so she did not break rule 14 at all.
 
Even supposing there was a little more separation between A and C than is shown in the diagram and there had been room for A to avoid the contact, because there was no injury or damage, A, a boat entitled to mark-room shall not be penalised for breaking rule 14, even though she did break it (rule 14(b))
 
B, outside both A and C, with no other boat interfering with her freedom to manoeuvre could readily have avoided the contact and thus broke rule 14, but, because there was no injury or damage, B, a right of way boat shall not be penalised for breaking that rule.
 
If A had delivered a valid protest (hailed 'Protest' at the first reasonable opportunity and delivered a written protest in accordance with rule 61.2 within the protest time limit in accordance with rule 61.3) and presented the facts in a protest hearing, she could expect the protest committee to conclude that:
  1. A on port did not keep clear of B on starboard, and that A broke rule 10.
  2. B, outside overlapped at the zone did not give mark room to A, inside at the zone, and that B broke rule 18.2( b ).
  3. When A did not keep clear of B, she was taking mark-room to which she was entitled and may be exonerated under rule 18.5.
  4. It was not reasonably possible for A to avoid contact with B, and A did not break rule 14.
  5. B did not avoid contact with A when it was reasonably possible to do so and B broke rule 14, but, because there was no injury or damage, B shall not be penalised for breaking rule 14.
  6. No boat took a penalty in accordance with rule 44.

The protest committee could then be expected to decide that:

  1. B is disqualified for breaking rule 18.2( b ).
  2. A is exonerated for breaking rule 10.


Edited by Brass - 22 Aug 12 at 4:35pm
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JohnnyJupiter View Drop Down
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Posts: 7 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnnyJupiter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 3:20pm
So now  I'm struggling with an apparent contradiction in my mind, having to do with 'keep clear'.

In the situation I've described above, I think boat A is required to keep clear of boat B, while at the same time boat B is required to give me mark room.  Two questions:

1. Am I (boat A) required to keep clear in this situation?  Why or why not?

2. If I am required to keep clear, doesn't that mean I have to sail a course that allows boat B to sail her proper course to the mark?  It seems to me that 'keep clear' and 'mark room' oppose each other in this case.

Sorry to flog this horse, but as I learn the nuances new questions keep popping up.  Thanks for your indulgence.
--JJ
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Posts: 7 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnnyJupiter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 2:59pm

Hi there jeffers,

Thanks for the additional info.  I think I'm beginning to get how rule 10 is the 'granddaddy' of ROW rules, but rule 18 imposes limits on rule 10.  Today there's a rules class I'm attending, along with the skipper of boat B.  I'm going to present this case to the group, we'll see what results.

I'll report back.  I expect the presentation could get lively, but I've done a lot of preparation...this forum discussion is a large part of that preparation...so I'm hopeful I can make him understand the rules a little better.

Thanks jeffers, JimC and Presuming Ed for helping me become a better and fairer racer.
--JJ
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 1:38pm
Definitely agree with the above, his actions are limited once you are in the zone. He MUST give mark room for both A and C which is 'room to sail to then proper course at'.

In reality what he should have done is squeeze you both up a little then slow down and try to nip through the inside gap that would have been created.

If his rules knowledge stops at port/starboard then he needs to get educated IMO.
Paul
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Posts: 7 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnnyJupiter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 9:58pm

Thanks for clarifying, much appreciated.

Now I just gotta convince the skipper of the outside boat he was wrong, but his knowledge of the rules stops with starboard vs port.

--JJ
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 9:42pm
Twas a typo. Should read "A must give C mark room". 
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Posts: 7 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnnyJupiter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 9:37pm

Hey JimC and Presuming Ed, thanks very much for your explanations.  They make things clearer.

Presuming Ed, one follow up: In line 2 of your reply, you say, "C also, as an inside overlapped boat, has right to mark room from A."  But in the line just below that, you say, "C must give A mark room." Was that what you meant to say?  Don't those two statements conflict?

Just tryin' to get this stuff figured out... Confused  Oh, and I was boat B, did one spin to exonerate myself (our fleet requires just one spin for both ROW and hitting marks violations).  Looks like I didn't need to spin at all, and that spin cost me big time, probably six boats cruised by while I was rotating.  Ouch.



Edited by JohnnyJupiter - 21 Aug 12 at 9:37pm
--JJ
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