Rule 10 or rule 18?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9749
Printed Date: 30 Jun 25 at 8:35am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Rule 10 or rule 18?
Posted By: JohnnyJupiter
Subject: Rule 10 or rule 18?
Date Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 6:51pm
|
Situation: Two Beetlecats approaching the leeward mark, both running by the lee. The mark will be taken to port. Inside the zone, boat A is on port tack and is the inside boat with an overlap on boat B. Boat B is on starboard tack. Boat B (outside boat) calls "Starboard!" and bumps into boat A; B's port rail hits A's starboard rail, a light tap/rub, no damage, no change of course by either boat. Question: Which rule 'trumps'? Rule 10 says boat B (outside boat) has rights because B is on starboard. Rule 18 says boat A (inside boat) must be given mark room. Possible extenuating circumstances (I don't know if these are germane to the question): 1. Rounding the mark, boat A (inside) will merely harden up while boat B (outside) will gybe. Rule 18.1.b states rule 18 does not apply at all (quoting the rule here): "...when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack." In this case, neither boat tacked: one gybed, one just hauled in. So IMHO rule 18 applies...agree or disagree? 2. Actually there were three Beetles. On boat A's port side was another boat C, also on port tack with an overlap on A and B. Boat A was giving C room at the mark. Does C constitute an obstruction for A? If so, doesn't that mean B has to give A room? My weak attempt at a diagram below. Posted by a newbie, please advise if I can supply more information. Thanks very much for your time and comments.  ------------- --JJ |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 7:09pm
So rule 10 is valid, but is restricted by rule 18. By your description the outside boat didn't give required room and should take a penalty. |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 7:45pm
|
No rule trumps. Different rules place different requirements on each boat. C is windward of A. C must keep clear of A as a windward boat (11). C also, as an inside overlapped boat, has right to mark room from A. A is leeward of C. As RoW boat wrt C, A must alter course in such a way as to give C room to keep clear (16.1). C must give A mark room. A is on port, and B is on starboard. A must keep clear of B (10). As inside overlapped (by definition) boat, B has to give A mark room. When B alters course, she must give A room to keep clear (16.1). |
Posted By: JohnnyJupiter
Date Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 9:37pm
|
Hey JimC and Presuming Ed, thanks very much for your explanations. They make things clearer. Presuming Ed, one follow up: In line 2 of your reply, you say, "C also, as an inside overlapped boat, has right to mark room from A." But in the line just below that, you say, "C must give A mark room." Was that what you meant to say? Don't those two statements conflict? Just tryin' to get this stuff figured out... ------------- --JJ |
Oh, and I was boat B, did one spin to exonerate myself (our fleet requires just one spin for both ROW and hitting marks violations). Looks like I didn't need to spin at all, and that spin cost me big time, probably six boats cruised by while I was rotating. Ouch.Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 9:42pm
| Twas a typo. Should read "A must give C mark room". |
Posted By: JohnnyJupiter
Date Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 9:58pm
|
Thanks for clarifying, much appreciated. Now I just gotta convince the skipper of the outside boat he was wrong, but his knowledge of the rules stops with starboard vs port. ------------- --JJ |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 1:38pm
|
Definitely agree with the above, his actions are limited once you are in the zone. He MUST give mark room for both A and C which is 'room to sail to then proper course at'. In reality what he should have done is squeeze you both up a little then slow down and try to nip through the inside gap that would have been created. If his rules knowledge stops at port/starboard then he needs to get educated IMO. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: JohnnyJupiter
Date Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 2:59pm
|
Hi there jeffers, Thanks for the additional info. I think I'm beginning to get how rule 10 is the 'granddaddy' of ROW rules, but rule 18 imposes limits on rule 10. Today there's a rules class I'm attending, along with the skipper of boat B. I'm going to present this case to the group, we'll see what results. I'll report back. I expect the presentation could get lively, but I've done a lot of preparation...this forum discussion is a large part of that preparation...so I'm hopeful I can make him understand the rules a little better. Thanks jeffers, JimC and Presuming Ed for helping me become a better and fairer racer. ------------- --JJ |
Posted By: JohnnyJupiter
Date Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 3:20pm
|
So now I'm struggling with an apparent contradiction in my mind, having to do with 'keep clear'. In the situation I've described above, I think boat A is required to keep clear of boat B, while at the same time boat B is required to give me mark room. Two questions: 1. Am I (boat A) required to keep clear in this situation? Why or why not? 2. If I am required to keep clear, doesn't that mean I have to sail a course that allows boat B to sail her proper course to the mark? It seems to me that 'keep clear' and 'mark room' oppose each other in this case. Sorry to flog this horse, but as I learn the nuances new questions keep popping up. Thanks for your indulgence. ------------- --JJ |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 4:17pm
|
In your original post you asked whether rule 18 'trumps' rule 10. I have to disagree with PEd: I think that to say rule 18 trumps rule 10 is quite a good way to put it. At the expense of reciting the analysis PEd had already given, here's how. C (to windward) must keep clear of A (to leeward) (rule 11). C (port) must keep clear of B (starboard) (rule 10). A (port) must keep clear of B (starboard) (rule 10). A (overlapped, or clear astern when the first of them reached the zone) must give C mark-room rule 18.2( b ). B (overlapped, or clear astern when the first of them reached the zone) must give A mark-room (rule 18.3( b ), and that includes room for A to give her mark-room to C (Case 114)
OK, so we see that C's entitlement mark-room to A conflicts with her obligation to keep clear of A, and A's entitlement to mark-room conflicts with her obligation to keep clear of B. Let's assume that A gives C mark-room, and that C does not fail to keep clear of A. The situation between A and C requires no further discussion. Here's how rule 18 resolves the conflict with respect to A and B. As long as A is taking mark-room to which she is entitled (that is, room to sail firstly to the mark, then, to sail her proper course at the mark (Definition: mark-room), rule 18.5 provides that she shall be exonerated if she breaks a rule of Section A (Right of Way Rules), or, while at the mark, rules 16 (Right of way boat changing course) or 15 (Acquiring Right of Way). So, by the mechanism of exoneration, rule 18 does indeed, 'trump' the right of way rules, as long as the give way boat is taking no more room than the mark-room to which she is entitled. But no other rule 'trumps' rule 14 (Avoiding Contact). So there was contact between B and A. If A was taking no more than the mark-room to which she was entitled, based on the diagram, it was not reasonably possible for A to avoid the contact, so she did not break rule 14 at all. Even supposing there was a little more separation between A and C than is shown in the diagram and there had been room for A to avoid the contact, because there was no injury or damage, A, a boat entitled to mark-room shall not be penalised for breaking rule 14, even though she did break it (rule 14(b)) B, outside both A and C, with no other boat interfering with her freedom to manoeuvre could readily have avoided the contact and thus broke rule 14, but, because there was no injury or damage, B, a right of way boat shall not be penalised for breaking that rule. If A had delivered a valid protest (hailed 'Protest' at the first reasonable opportunity and delivered a written protest in accordance with rule 61.2 within the protest time limit in accordance with rule 61.3) and presented the facts in a protest hearing, she could expect the protest committee to conclude that:
The protest committee could then be expected to decide that:
|
Posted By: JohnnyJupiter
Date Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 4:40pm
|
Wow, that's a very clear and detailed analysis Brass. Thank you for taking the time to provide it. I'm in the midst of reading and assimilating the information you provided, got the rules meeting in 90 minutes...yikes!...so I'm trying to get all my ducks in a row. I feel like I'm going before the professors for my doctoral oral exam. I'll report on any outcome. I did protest boat B and she protested me directly at the end of the race, but there was no follow up with a protest committee. I think the general feeling is, and I agree, that's escalating the situation beyond what's worthwhile and casts a bit of shadow on the friendly nature of our racing. If it had been the class championship, then perhaps there would have been more of a follow through. I want to get this in my rear-view mirror but mostly I want to learn from it. You guys have helped with that. And besides, tonight I've got a race in a different class (Watch Hill 15, lovely Herreshoff design) where the stakes are higher, so I need to be clear-headed for that. ------------- --JJ |
Posted By: JohnnyJupiter
Date Posted: 22 Aug 12 at 9:23pm
|
Rules committee result: I was judged not to be at fault (boat A in the diagram). Boat B, the outside boat that called "Starboard" was judged to be at fault. We all learned a lot from the discussion, it was friendly throughout. The skipper of boat B offered an apology for the incident, which of course I accepted. All your replies gave me the knowledge and confidence I needed. I owe all of you a beer should you ever make it to the Colonies.  Thanks again.------------- --JJ |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 23 Aug 12 at 1:54pm
And that is a good result. Although you should not be afraid to protest. By the nature of the word it sounds confrontational but in reality it is usually where 2 people have a differing view of the rules and a protest (or rules committee) can help sort this out and makes the racing more fun because people involved know what they should and should not do. Just be aware that the rules change at the end of the year so best to keep an eye on the ISAF site and try to understand the changes. The Bryan Willis book on rules (usually called 'Understanding the Rule in Practice .....') is a great book to have. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |