RTIR Question

Originally posted by Quagers I think your missing the specific point here though, some of the 'proper race classes' had their race cancelled but still went round in full on racing mode. So they looked exactly like they were racing but in fact were not.

 

The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing.  However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 23.1.

 

The 'fast cruising boat', although she is 'in or near the racing area':

• is not racing
• has not been racing
• arguably, does not intend to race.

Is rule 2/69 all we are left with?

 

Originally posted by blueboy Originally posted by Presuming Ed Except, the RtIR is the one race where it's possible to come across a Bavaria with in mast furling, and 5 people sitting in the cockpit, and they're racing. You might but generally you don't, because the ISC classes start after the "proper" race classes. I've done too many RTIRs to have kept count and don't recall a time I had a problem distinguishing cruising boats. As you've hinted elsewhere, this is in any case not a race where the prudent presume that everyone has a fine grasp of the racing rules.

Except, the RtIR is the one race where it's possible to come across a Bavaria with in mast furling, and 5 people sitting in the cockpit, and they're racing.

Originally posted by RS400atC Originally posted by Brass [...... So, if the boat is flying a prescribed backstay flag, then you know she is racing.  If you are in the racing area and you see a boat not flying the prescribed backstay flag, you may assume she is not racing. ......... ·         If you hit them, at all, you deserve everything you get, whether under COLREGS or rule 14. ·         If you scare the pants off them but manage not to hit them, unless the owner is a senior officer in the Coastguard or the Police, then nobody much will care whether you were under RRS or COLREGS. I see some practical difficulties in spotting the backstay flag on an overtaking boat with lots of crew and sails in the way. It's really not good enough just to reduce it to 'if you hit them...'   as a) in an overlap situation, where two boats collide side to side ,who hit who?, and b) in an event like RTIR, it is not as simple as just two boats. If there is a non-racing boat that I have to give way to under colregs, that is an obstruction which I can require other racing yachts to give me room for. When you have a hundred boats rounding Bembridge Ledge, not knowing which ones are bound by the RRS is a serious issue. If there is a serious collision involving a boat which is operating in a grey area where it may be racing or not, I suspect that could keep the lawyers busy for a while.

You poms seem to be the only people in the world who think there is a problem with telling whether a boat is racing by looking at it.

 

Here's what Paul Elvstrom said when the requirement for racing flags was removed from the RRS in 1964:

 

The old British attitude of 'Distinguishing Flag etiquettee', now wholly out of keeping with modern sailing conditions, especially for dinghies, is gradually dying out.  Most countries have never required a distinguishing flag at the masthead.  ... The British argument for lowering the racing flag upon retirement has almost nothing in its favour and much against it.  (Elvstrom, Paul, Expert Dinghy and Keelboat Racing, 1967, Adlard Coles, London, p165).

 

You see a big boat, rolling over the top of you with lots of sails and lots of crew:  aren't they the very cues and clues I mentioned that tell you the boat is probably racing?

 

Are you seriously saying that you have experienced this problem, or is it some kind of hypothetical?

 

Thinking more carefully about how the respective rules apply.

 

First, remember that the IRPCAS are written to cope with supertankers with turning circles measured in miles, not boat lengths.  But even a cruising clunker can get out of trouble without too much difficulty.

 

As long as the boat is clear astern of you, she must keep clear, IRPCAS rule 13, RRS rule 12.

 

If the boat becomes overlapped to windward of you, she must keep clear, (IRPCAS rule 13, RRS rule 11).  She expects you to maintain your course and speed (IRPCAS rule 17(a)), you know you must not throw a hard luff at her (RRS rule 16), so you gradually snuggle up into a close lee-bow situation.  Under IRPCAS, what does a vessel do that 'fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision'?  Answer:  she sounds five short blasts on her whistle (IRPCAS rule 34(d)), or, perhaps more practically she hails you:

Aiiii saiiiii, shouldn't you be keeping your course and speed don'tcha know?

So you now have a pretty clear indication that she is not racing, and don't you just ease away and no harm done?

 

If the boat becomes overlapped to leeward of you, under IRPCAS she remains bound to keep clear under IRPCAS rule 13, but you must keep clear under RRS rule 11, so here's the first point of divergence.  Hooooever, she thinks she must keep clear, you think you must keep clear, so as long as you each do what you believe you must do, there's no problem.    Is there?

 

So finally the overtaking cruiser draws clear ahead of you.  Under IRPCAS rule 13 (d) she is still required to keep clear of you until she is 'past and clear', but you now see her as clear ahead, and must keep clear of her under RRS rule 12.  Once again, each thinks she must keep clear of the other, so there's no problem.  She finally reaches a position of being past and clear, and now both boat's obligations under IRPCAS rule 13 and RRS 12 are once again the same.

 

OK, suppose that, through inattention, breakdown, tsunami or whatever, both boats do not understand and apply the right of way rules that they think apply to them:  there's always the fall back:  under rule 14 a racing boat must avoid contact, and under IRPCAS Rule 17 ( b ) 'When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.  So, once again, if each boat does what she thinks is right according to the rules that she thinks apply, contact or collision will be avoided.

Originally posted by Brass [...... So, if the boat is flying a prescribed backstay flag, then you know she is racing.  If you are in the racing area and you see a boat not flying the prescribed backstay flag, you may assume she is not racing. ......... ·         If you hit them, at all, you deserve everything you get, whether under COLREGS or rule 14. ·         If you scare the pants off them but manage not to hit them, unless the owner is a senior officer in the Coastguard or the Police, then nobody much will care whether you were under RRS or COLREGS.

I see some practical difficulties in spotting the backstay flag on an overtaking boat with lots of crew and sails in the way.

It's really not good enough just to reduce it to 'if you hit them...'   as a) in an overlap situation, where two boats collide side to side ,who hit who?, and b) in an event like RTIR, it is not as simple as just two boats.

If there is a non-racing boat that I have to give way to under colregs, that is an obstruction which I can require other racing yachts to give me room for.
When you have a hundred boats rounding Bembridge Ledge, not knowing which ones are bound by the RRS is a serious issue.

If there is a serious collision involving a boat which is operating in a grey area where it may be racing or not, I suspect that could keep the lawyers busy for a while.