RTIR Question
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9565
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 8:49pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: RTIR Question
Posted By: RS400atC
Subject: RTIR Question
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 12:41pm
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This was posted by someone on a boat in a class whose RTIr was abandoned: """"Sorry if we got in your way but we were racing, you must remember that you are not just racing in your class start but also in the overall line honours race. Any boat is allowed to start at the time of the first gun, provided they have entered, if they want to go for line honours. So, that is what we did, we were racing, as were every other boat out there who started."""" Is a boat 'racing' if it goes out intending to race but its class is cancelled? If it's not racing, how does another boat know? |
Replies:
Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 12:57pm
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According the definition she's not racing until the preparatory signal is given. I'd guess that in something like the RTIR there'd be some kind of radio chatter. ------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 1:04pm
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i think the main point is that if a class is not starting then it should be in the 2 holding zones, thats in the SIs and they have the overall ruling ------------- TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 1:08pm
| There's a lot of specific requirements for competitors in the NOR and SIs for the event, which are still available from the organisers website. They don't seem to agree with some of the statements from "someone"! |
Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 5:10pm
| This is easy to settle, have a look at the results sheet, non of them appear so they were not racing. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 5:30pm
So if you are on a closing course with one of these guys around the back of the Wight, do you treat him as a competitor and accord him rights and responsibilities under RRS, or is he just sailing and therefore colregs apply? Does it depend on whether he is flying an ensign or something? If he is flying a class flag I'd assume he was racing or expected to be treated as such. If two boats sail around 'racing' each other, does that count? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 6:33pm
| Isn't it wise to treat every craft on the water as being under IRPCS unless you can be certain that RRS apply? |
Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 7:26pm
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I expected the guys out there who were all racers so know how frustrating it is to display some courtesy and not get in the way. If I had been in their position I would definitely have gone round but would have made sure I never made anyone tack off/duck me. I know there is absolutely no requirement for them to but I'm sure most of them when racing will have complained about 'some bloody cruiser'. So it would nice if people practised what the preached when the roles were reversed.
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Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 7:48pm
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Why start a new thread for this!? We were racing against ICAP Leopard, in the race for line honours. On the other hand, nobody had to tack for us. On the other other hand we were out for a sail, so the col regs still apply. Did it cause a problem? No! So stop whining and get back to sipping the G+T on your cruise box!
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 7:51pm
Not if you are give way boat under RRS but stand on vessel under colregs! E.g if a sportsboat was to establish an overlap to leeward from astern, under colregs he would be give way vessel (overtaking boat). Under RRS, you are windward boat, he can sail his proper course. Under colregs, the windward boat is required to hold its course! |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 7:53pm
| But it didn't happen so drink that G+T before the ice melts! |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 8:05pm
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This attitude towards boats which aren't sleds reminds me of the rudeness shown towards more traditional (or plastic) dinghies by some skiff sailors. Basically, it is bad for the sport as a whole, and doesn't attract newcomers to the sport.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: ASok
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 8:15pm
I'm not sure how you considered yourself racing for line honours? If your class was abandoned then surely you were just sailing for fun, but not actually doing the RTI. Or am I missing something? ------------- |
Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 8:22pm
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They weren't racing for line honours, other than in their minds, even if they had crossed the line first it would not have been recognised as a line honours win as you weren't racing. And dont make any kind of assumption about what boat people on here did it in, certainly if I had had a G&T on sat it would have almost immediately be replaced by a glass of salt water.
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Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 9:03pm
Just teasing, cheer up! If I had a G+T it would have had to be in a CamelBack or something. Just about managed a swig of a powerade before the start of the run, and again just after. I will post the video for everyone to enjoy when it has been edited! 
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 3:07am
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Quite right. · Every boat was assigned to a Fleet by the SI. · Every Fleet was assigned scheduled Warning Signal, P Flag and Starting times in the SI. · P Flag means 'preparatory signal' (RRS Race Signals). The preparatory signal for a boat's class or fleet determines when she begins to be 'racing' (Definitions: racing). · If a boat's Fleet is abandoned, then there will never be a starting signal for that fleet, and boats in that fleet will never have started (Definitions: start). · Boats which are OCS or given a time penalty are not eligible for Line Honours prizes (SI 10.1.3). So there's not the faintest suggestion in the SI of what 'someone' is saying.
Spot on as far as it goes, but unless and until the SI replace the RRS with 'radio chatter' that is irrelevant. While a boat may not be racing until her preparatory signal is displayed, (and therefore if her preparatory signal is never displayed is never racing), however, the Preamble to RRS Part 2 (When Boats Meet) provides: The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing. However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 23.1.
Does it depend on whether he is flying an ensign or something? If he is flying a class flag I'd assume he was racing or expected to be treated as such. If two boats sail around 'racing' each other, does that count? In the RTIr, the SI provide: 4.5 Boats shall, while racing, wear from the backstay (or stern if no backstay is fitted) the fleet flag and, below this, any class identification flag assigned by the Island Sailing Club. Fleet and class identification flag assignments are shown. I understand that most major races in the UK require something similar. So, if the boat is flying a prescribed backstay flag, then you know she is racing. If you are in the racing area and you see a boat not flying the prescribed backstay flag, you may assume she is not racing. Once, long, long ago, when people could spell 'flag etiquette', boats racing made sure that they did not display either ensigns or club burgees (and indeed there were ancient rules prohibiting or limiting this). Therefore, you could assume that a boat flying an ensign or a burgee was not racing. Those old traditions seem to have gone the way of button-up deckshoes. What gets boats to be racing under the RRS is an agreement, hopefully contained in the official entry form prescribed in the Notice of Race, in accordance with rule J1.2(6), containing words such as ‘I agree to be bound by The Racing Rules of Sailing and by all other rules that govern this event.' Boats racing in a race organised by an Organising Authority in accordance with the RRS will make this agreement, and the rules require them to be bound by the rules in respect of all other boats. Boats that where just 'racing each other' might not have made such a broad agreement, and might choose to do you under the COLREGS.
I suggest that the RTIr is an unsual case, in that there may be a very wide disparity of boats of different styles, so that the normal clues and cues to whether a boat is racing (going fast in a straight line, people trimming sails, people hiking, generally paying attention) may not apply, or may be more subtly conveyed, such as in the angle of the G&T glass. But the backstay flag there should be a pretty infallible guide. Otherwise, if you are 'racing' and you come across a cruising clunker: · If you hit them, at all, you deserve everything you get, whether under COLREGS or rule 14. · If you scare the pants off them but manage not to hit them, unless the owner is a senior officer in the Coastguard or the Police, then nobody much will care whether you were under RRS or COLREGS. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 10:23am
I see some practical difficulties in spotting the backstay flag on an overtaking boat with lots of crew and sails in the way. It's really not good enough just to reduce it to 'if you hit them...' as a) in an overlap situation, where two boats collide side to side ,who hit who?, and b) in an event like RTIR, it is not as simple as just two boats. If there is a non-racing boat that I have to give way to under colregs, that is an obstruction which I can require other racing yachts to give me room for. When you have a hundred boats rounding Bembridge Ledge, not knowing which ones are bound by the RRS is a serious issue. If there is a serious collision involving a boat which is operating in a grey area where it may be racing or not, I suspect that could keep the lawyers busy for a while. |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 1:15pm
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You do rather hope that non racing boats keep out of the way at the corners in the RtI - Needles, Bembridge etc. And leaving RoW/GW status, I reckon the prime requirement is to give way to those who are less than sure about what they're doing(*)..... (*) not necessarily the actual phrase used in anger.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 6:48am
You poms seem to be the only people in the world who think there is a problem with telling whether a boat is racing by looking at it. Here's what Paul Elvstrom said when the requirement for racing flags was removed from the RRS in 1964: The old British attitude of 'Distinguishing Flag etiquettee', now wholly out of keeping with modern sailing conditions, especially for dinghies, is gradually dying out. Most countries have never required a distinguishing flag at the masthead. ... The British argument for lowering the racing flag upon retirement has almost nothing in its favour and much against it. (Elvstrom, Paul, Expert Dinghy and Keelboat Racing, 1967, Adlard Coles, London, p165). You see a big boat, rolling over the top of you with lots of sails and lots of crew: aren't they the very cues and clues I mentioned that tell you the boat is probably racing? Are you seriously saying that you have experienced this problem, or is it some kind of hypothetical? Thinking more carefully about how the respective rules apply. First, remember that the IRPCAS are written to cope with supertankers with turning circles measured in miles, not boat lengths. But even a cruising clunker can get out of trouble without too much difficulty. As long as the boat is clear astern of you, she must keep clear, IRPCAS rule 13, RRS rule 12. If the boat becomes overlapped to windward of you, she must keep clear, (IRPCAS rule 13, RRS rule 11). She expects you to maintain your course and speed (IRPCAS rule 17(a)), you know you must not throw a hard luff at her (RRS rule 16), so you gradually snuggle up into a close lee-bow situation. Under IRPCAS, what does a vessel do that 'fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision'? Answer: she sounds five short blasts on her whistle (IRPCAS rule 34(d)), or, perhaps more practically she hails you: Aiiii saiiiii, shouldn't you be keeping your course and speed don'tcha know? So you now have a pretty clear indication that she is not racing, and don't you just ease away and no harm done? If the boat becomes overlapped to leeward of you, under IRPCAS she remains bound to keep clear under IRPCAS rule 13, but you must keep clear under RRS rule 11, so here's the first point of divergence. Hooooever, she thinks she must keep clear, you think you must keep clear, so as long as you each do what you believe you must do, there's no problem. Is there? So finally the overtaking cruiser draws clear ahead of you. Under IRPCAS rule 13 (d) she is still required to keep clear of you until she is 'past and clear', but you now see her as clear ahead, and must keep clear of her under RRS rule 12. Once again, each thinks she must keep clear of the other, so there's no problem. She finally reaches a position of being past and clear, and now both boat's obligations under IRPCAS rule 13 and RRS 12 are once again the same. OK, suppose that, through inattention, breakdown, tsunami or whatever, both boats do not understand and apply the right of way rules that they think apply to them: there's always the fall back: under rule 14 a racing boat must avoid contact, and under IRPCAS Rule 17 ( b ) 'When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision. So, once again, if each boat does what she thinks is right according to the rules that she thinks apply, contact or collision will be avoided. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 11:51am
Or a small boat with the crew hiking till it hurts. Probably not out for a cruise. You are correct, it's perfectly obvious most of the time whether or not a boat is racing. If you are not sure, it's usually possible to hail and politely ask. Apart from the odd member of the Awkward Squad, or those inexperienced helms you sometimes see with the look of frightened rabbits, the vast majority of cruising boats do their best to keep out of the way of race boats anyway (and should be rewarded with a friendly wave). |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 12:01pm
| Except, the RtIR is the one race where it's possible to come across a Bavaria with in mast furling, and 5 people sitting in the cockpit, and they're racing. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 12:11pm
You might but generally you don't, because the ISC classes start after the "proper" race classes. I've done too many RTIRs to have kept count and don't recall a time I had a problem distinguishing cruising boats. As you've hinted elsewhere, this is in any case not a race where the prudent presume that everyone has a fine grasp of the racing rules. |
Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 12:19pm
I think your missing the specific point here though, some of the 'proper race classes' had their race cancelled but still went round in full on racing mode. So they looked exactly like they were racing but in fact were not.
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 12:28pm
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If they are people who race and know they are not racing, you'd hope they've the courtesy and knowledge not to impede those who are racing. If you are really, really unsure if a boat is racing and asking them is impossible, you've got to assume colregs apply. As for "racing for line honours", this is either someone taking the mickey or woefully misinformed. I suspect the former. |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 18 Jul 12 at 3:40am
Well, at least 'someone' said that was what happened.
And if it did:
A boat that is racing gets rolled to windward and gassed out the back door by one of these boats that is not racing because she has never had a preparatory signal.
You can't lay a glove on her:
Preamble to RRS Part 2 (When Boats Meet) provides:
The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing. However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 23.1. The 'fast cruising boat', although she is 'in or near the racing area':
Is rule 2/69 all we are left with? |