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Being Daft in Handicap Races
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sargesail View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by sargesail

Jeffers,

Well aware of it and why we set up on the inside on many occasions.  But I'm talking slow moving lasers running by the lee on port.  I was looking up their transom line having rounded as the B14.  Their nose was variously 1.5 to 2 boat lengths from the mark and the B14 was a good 3/4 of a length behind transom line calling not room (and I mean the sprit not the bow), but starboard.

Happened twice.

The answer is for people to know and apply the rules.  This was too much to be misperception just bullying. Because once the 3 lasers give room the damage is done.

Simple answer, the Lasers agree to witness each other and protest the B14 for not keep clear when they were not overlapped at the zone...the B14 gets chucked.


I disagree - return to the point of certainty.  The B14 is establishing, not the Lasers breaking the overlap, so the B14 should give room and protest.

It is not a simple case of let them in and protest. 
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 8:46pm
Al,

I don't think it was you then.......!
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 8:29pm

if there were two incidents with B14s doing this, then they were two different boats! We did get this wrong on one occasion (made the wrong call Embarrassed), but on our incident the guy in the 100 reckoned our bowsprit had overlapped the Fireball concerned in good time- the Fireball sailor though was of the belief that bowsprits don't count for overlap. They don't count for boat length, true, but as the spinnaker was still hoisted and filled, it certainly counted for overlap. So, ignorance was met with ignorance.

There definitely weren't any Lasers anywhere in the area when this happened!
-_
Al
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by sargesail

Jeffers,

Well aware of it and why we set up on the inside on many occasions.  But I'm talking slow moving lasers running by the lee on port.  I was looking up their transom line having rounded as the B14.  Their nose was variously 1.5 to 2 boat lengths from the mark and the B14 was a good 3/4 of a length behind transom line calling not room (and I mean the sprit not the bow), but starboard.

Happened twice.

The answer is for people to know and apply the rules.  This was too much to be misperception just bullying. Because once the 3 lasers give room the damage is done.

Simple answer, the Lasers agree to witness each other and protest the B14 for not keep clear when they were not overlapped at the zone...the B14 gets chucked.

This would be my interpretation...if you are not overlapped at the zone then being on starboard counts for nowt (I could be wrong there are other rules people who are far more knowledgeable that I around here).

I would have hoped that sailing a performance boat like a B14 that requires a reasonable amount of skill they would also amass a reasonable amount of rules knowledge more for their own protection than anything else! If like you say it was deliberate and they were bullying then were are back to good old rule 2 again.....but lets not go there shall we....
Paul
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by iansmithofotley

Hi everyone,

 

When I started racing, a long time ago, there were the ‘Racing Rules of Sailing’ (as they are now called) and the ‘Unwritten Rules of Sailing’, which was in effect ‘etiquette’ and ‘gentlemanly conduct’.  I learned these ‘unwritten rules’ by experience, from friendly advice and by learning from my own transgressions.  I soon got to know what was acceptable, and what was not acceptable, behaviour on the water, albeit within the ‘racing rules’.

 

I also found that it is usually the same people, all the time, who don’t conform to the ‘unwritten rules’, who either never seem to learn, or are just prepared to take liberties.  Maybe they just don’t give a damn about the other competitors.

 

It happens at my own club and I can think of an 800 and a couple of Vortexes who do it all the time, and they have been doing it for years.  They never, ever, try to pass slower boats to leeward – always to windward.  Furthermore, they never take a ‘hint’ (with a small luff to indicate to them not to pass), a further ‘hint’, or even another ‘hint’, and then they are not happy if they are stuffed up to windward with their kites stalling.

 

If a slower boat allow a faster boat to pass to windward without a response by the slower boat, there is always a danger that other faster boats will get the message and all try to do the same, so the slower boat is helpless and looses a lot of time to a lot of boats.

 

The problem with this is that it causes unwanted bad feelings, and also encourages people to get reputations as ardent luffers.  From my own experience, at my club, I have found that this behaviour never comes from the top sailors in the club, they tend to just crack off a bit, sail past to leeward, and then choose their ongoing course.

 

So are these ‘unwritten rules of sailing’ a thing of the past or is it that a lot of people just don’t care any more?

 

There again, maybe it’s just me that doesn’t understand.

 

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)

 

 


If the "unwritten rules" are things that are sensible conduct that can be derived from understanding the RRS, things that will help you in your race then fine.  But you don't need "rules" for that really, just a sensible head.

The main problem I have with unwritten rules is that the people that use them (in my experience)  can tend to do do so for their own advantage only.

When you're racing, follow the RRS and try and maximise your finishing position within them. Anything else will lead to conflict and confusion :)  If someone stuffs you, and they're within their rights under the RRS to do so, tough!  Just because you can't see the advantage of them doing so doesn't mean there isn't one!  And even if there really isn't... tough!




Edited by bustinben - 01 Mar 12 at 4:27pm
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by iansmithofotley

I also found that it is usually the same people, all the time, who don’t conform to the ‘unwritten rules’, who either never seem to learn, or are just prepared to take liberties.  Maybe they just don’t give a damn about the other competitors.

 

It happens at my own club and I can think of an 800 and a couple of Vortexes who do it all the time, and they have been doing it for years.  They never, ever, try to pass slower boats to leeward – always to windward.  Furthermore, they never take a ‘hint’ (with a small luff to indicate to them not to pass), a further ‘hint’, or even another ‘hint’, and then they are not happy if they are stuffed up to windward with their kites stalling.

 

If a slower boat allow a faster boat to pass to windward without a response by the slower boat, there is always a danger that other faster boats will get the message and all try to do the same, so the slower boat is helpless and looses a lot of time to a lot of boats.

 

The problem with this is that it causes unwanted bad feelings, and also encourages people to get reputations as ardent luffers.  From my own experience, at my club, I have found that this behaviour never comes from the top sailors in the club, they tend to just crack off a bit, sail past to leeward, and then choose their ongoing course.

 

So are these ‘unwritten rules of sailing’ a thing of the past or is it that a lot of people just don’t care any more?

 

Spot on.  I've been lucky enough to sail at several clubs, inland and on the sea over the years and there have been a few who just ignore the rules, never mind those not actually written down in club racing.  What's always made me smile/grit my teeth is the fact that these same people often comply with all the rules at opens... so it's a very deliberate act when they don't in 'normal' club series races.
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by iansmithofotley

and the ‘Unwritten Rules of Sailing’,

The big trouble with unwritten rules is that they aren't written down, and tend to vary from place to place, so they are always a bit dificult to work out...

At open events its probably better to rely on RRS and a dose of common sense, especially the thought that whatever you hand out you are liable to get back with interest. Mrs Bedonebyasyoudid may be out of fashion, but the principle still applies...
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iansmithofotley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 11:51am

Hi everyone,

 

When I started racing, a long time ago, there were the ‘Racing Rules of Sailing’ (as they are now called) and the ‘Unwritten Rules of Sailing’, which was in effect ‘etiquette’ and ‘gentlemanly conduct’.  I learned these ‘unwritten rules’ by experience, from friendly advice and by learning from my own transgressions.  I soon got to know what was acceptable, and what was not acceptable, behaviour on the water, albeit within the ‘racing rules’.

 

I also found that it is usually the same people, all the time, who don’t conform to the ‘unwritten rules’, who either never seem to learn, or are just prepared to take liberties.  Maybe they just don’t give a damn about the other competitors.

 

It happens at my own club and I can think of an 800 and a couple of Vortexes who do it all the time, and they have been doing it for years.  They never, ever, try to pass slower boats to leeward – always to windward.  Furthermore, they never take a ‘hint’ (with a small luff to indicate to them not to pass), a further ‘hint’, or even another ‘hint’, and then they are not happy if they are stuffed up to windward with their kites stalling.

 

If a slower boat allow a faster boat to pass to windward without a response by the slower boat, there is always a danger that other faster boats will get the message and all try to do the same, so the slower boat is helpless and looses a lot of time to a lot of boats.

 

The problem with this is that it causes unwanted bad feelings, and also encourages people to get reputations as ardent luffers.  From my own experience, at my club, I have found that this behaviour never comes from the top sailors in the club, they tend to just crack off a bit, sail past to leeward, and then choose their ongoing course.

 

So are these ‘unwritten rules of sailing’ a thing of the past or is it that a lot of people just don’t care any more?

 

There again, maybe it’s just me that doesn’t understand.

 

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)

 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 10:49am
When we first got into racing there was an older chap in a Laser who would do all he could to stop us getting past. He was a better sailor than me (and still is) but he knew that if we got past early, we would beat him on handicap. He luffed us, stuffed us and covered us at every opportunity.....We learned loads.
 
I learned that overtaking down/off wind requires thought about tactical stuff (instead of pedal to the metal dumbness). Also learned that upwind overtaking was safer and provided more opportunities so I needed to get my upwind sailing sorted.........I can now avoid most of these situations and am a slightly improved racer.
 
If you get luffed it's your own fault for being luffable IMO.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 10:25am
Ok, so have we reached a conclusion that one definition of being daft in handicap races is to attempt to pass a slower boat to windward close enough to interfere with their air?
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