Being Daft in Handicap Races
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Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9029
Printed Date: 26 Jun 25 at 1:05am
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Topic: Being Daft in Handicap Races
Posted By: alstorer
Subject: Being Daft in Handicap Races
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:00pm
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sort of related to the "match racing" thread, but not quite.
We were purely sailing the Dash for giggles, even the good b14s stood no chance and we're not good. Still, it does irritate a little when people do deliberately daft things.
One that happened a couple of times was on the reach legs. Our spinnaker isn't exactly cut for reaching. So they were tricky legs. We'd come up behind a 400 (or other, but one incident that stuck in the mind was with a 400- similar things happened with furballs, Ospreys etc) that's able to hold its kite higher. We'd be unable to get under to leeward, as passing close we didn't have enough extra mast height, and passing wide we'd go too far down wind. We couldn't though pass above, as at the first hint of overlap they'd start luffing. They'd luff so much that it was actually hurting their progress- much more than simply letting us ghost past them would. Eventually there was a slight shift that allowed us to climb up, over and round them- but in all this the 400 had probabbly been hurt just as much as we had.
Is this just the sort of thing whereby you need to seek the individuals out in the bar later on and explain gently to them why it isn't really on in a handicap race and that it isn't healthy for their race position? If it was the dying minutes of the pursuit race I'd have no complaints. Do we need an etiquette guide for when multiple, very different classes, clash?
(see also: Fireballs needing to understand that a B14 requires 2 1/1 times the mark room that a Fireball would require- this from one of the other Bs) ------------- -_ Al |
Replies:
Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:05pm
| i have had this sort of thing in our local mid week handcap series - you can't pass to windward or to leeward even though you are (potentially) quicker. Luffing seems to add more pleasure for those who got a chance to do it - odd |
Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:06pm
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I have had that in the B and other big kite boats before where people dont shout stbd until the last second and expect you to have seen them, but i agree al people think that they are just racing the people around them, if somone wants to roll over me in a quicker boat i would let them and try to protect my wind by going lower ------------- TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:15pm
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I dont get why you say they require 2.5 times the amount of Mark room. I get the boat is wider and perhaps the transom swings out as the boat turns but 2.5 tmes is a lot from 1 class to another.
As for not hollering starboard until the last second...IMO that is too bad on the port boat as there is no requirement to hail (whether there should be is another debate). The onus is on both boats to keep a proper look out. The ROW boat is not required to do anything until it is clear that the non-ROW boat is going to break the rules.
At events like the 'Dash you are bringing together people who may have never raced against something to wide as a B14 so a little common sense needs to prevail and boats need to be extra vigilant (IMO). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:16pm
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It's always going to be a problem when you have 70+ boats in a race that lasts less than an hour. The 400 is entitled to defend his clear wind, to the extent of the rules. You have the options to pass wider to windward or to leeward. The fact that you struggle to overtake to leeward is really not the 400's problem is it? Such is handicap racing. Particularly when it's organised such that the fast boats have to overtake the slow ones. Who is being daft? Possibly either the organisers or the B14 sailor who expects a clear run in a 70 boat race on a dried up puddle? Who thinks he has a right to give slower boats his windshadow as he overtakes close to windward? Just putting another slant on it. Personally I'd have just covered the other 400's and the Merlins and let you go, unless you were influencing my position against those boats. |
Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:17pm
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the boat is about 2.5m wide, which always make it interesting around marks, and i think al means because its a bagged kite it takes alittle longer to get it round ------------- TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:24pm
The width I get...the bagging of the kite should be immaterial...Mark room is room to sail to the mark then proper course at the mark.... If they are still frantically bagging when they should be rounding up that is a case for them to be protested....
But we are picking holes here..... I would try to slow down and sneak up inside them so I could tack away and try to clear my air. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:27pm
------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:30pm
Dropping and bagging the kite is part of rounding the mark, they are entitled to room to do it in a 'seamanlike manner', sailing their proper course? |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:33pm
I think you've lost a bit, the one in my shed is a tad over 3m with the wings on! |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:40pm
Correct but they must still round up as soon as they can and not reach off while the crew still bags...
In any case tactically (unless you are in another B14 or something of similar speed) you are going to want to get away as soon as you can to clear your air, hence why tacking away might be a better option rather than whinge about their rounding skills and getting stuck under them for the first part of the beat... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 5:22pm
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If you pass to close to windward in a large sailed boat you are almost always going to get luffed into the next county because
1.1 It encourages you to overtake to leeward like a gentleman next time 1.2 Its just plain fun to do and 1.3 Its good practice if you are ever in that situation with a minute of the pursuit race left And if you are sailing just for giggles, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, 2.1 should you be aggressively taking the wind of people who might not be sailing for giggles and 2.2 why shouldn't someone else get their giggles by luffing you into Staffordshire? |
Posted By: Little Monster
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 5:33pm
+1 ------------- Phantom "Little Monster" 1404 |
Posted By: Fraggle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 5:36pm
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As one of the smallest sails on the water in mixed racing (radial) if something is going to overtake fast then fine, go whichever side you like. If you are going to overtake slowly expect to be luffed massively. I try to stay high in mixed fleets to encourage leeward passes anyway. If I go low as suggested by someone else above assy boats just tend to bear down on me anyway.
At Draycote everything overtook slowly due to the lack of wind at times and I just stop whenever I get overtaken to windward whereas I doubt most of the larger boats would even notice my wind shadow. I actually had to get out of my boat on one reach as was happily hiking and sailing at speed until a couple of larger boats went high and I lost all wind and only stopped the boat capsizing to windward by climbing out! ------------- |
Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 6:37pm
its a tactical sport. That's why its fun. We get OK's and RS400's trying to cover us and that just adds to the enjoyment (imho). i wouldn't expect someone in a slower boat to move over and sure as hell i wouldn't just move over for a faster boat! after all it is a race. isn't it?.... 
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Posted By: Skiffman
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 7:05pm
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Your not in control of what the other boat does, you can only control where your boat goes so concentrate on that. Plan early to get high if thats where you want to go. Or just get faster boat! ------------- 49er GBR5 http://www.teamfletcherandsign.co.uk - teamfletcherandsign.co.uk Team Fletcher and Sign campaign site |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 7:12pm
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It is much more effective to luff whilst the fast boat still has a chance to duck below, but if they are too stupid to take the hint, then hard luck, I say. Might even get lucky and they tip it in when luffing up with their stupidly large kite... It could well be that stopping them overtaking quickly at the beginning of a race (why else are they behind?) could make the difference between beating them or not on handicap at the end. A fast boat in clear wind can soon get an enormous lead. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 7:25pm
+1 on the plan early message, it's the best way to avoid issues, I remember getting very grumpy about this back in the i14 days, but you know, looking back afterwards we had plenty of time (and speed mostly) to do something different... and should have done. Always keep an eye out for Furballers and Lazy-ers though, renowned luffers the lot of them 
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Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 8:10pm
+1 ------------- Cheers you only me from over the sea...... |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 8:29pm
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1. If you're going to go to windward you need a passing lane. 2. If you're not then do a low high instead, with enough separation to harden up through the wind shadow. 3. As the slower boat you need to set out your stall. As some say - set up high early to deny a passing lane. 4. Manage the faster boat early. Communicate the fact that you will luff, coax/coach them below. In my J24 days I used to have the following French phrase ready for Spi Ouest "Si vous allez en haut on vous prendera a Chine!" That was often effective (not least because it tended to shock a dose of the slows into the perfidious frenchmen). 5. If they won't listen then "reinforce the message with a big luff" - so that the fast boat is discouraged from doing it again. As for Mark Room I watched a number of B14s pushing their luck at the port hand leeward mark, calling starboard on boats which were clear ahead at the zone (not room which shows either ignorance or bullying). Rule infringements weren't confined to the Bs - but from what I saw they were the most gratuitous examples.
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Posted By: andy101
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 9:19pm
| in a laser always make the faster boat go below you - in marginal conditions you can sometimes hitch a lift on their wake for a bit if you catch it right. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 9:31am
Remember Mark Room applies from the closest boat.....
So an Assy coming in sailing the angles on Startboard is likely to have entitlement to Mark Room from a long way out. Boats running DDW or approaching from Port should be aware of this.
In large event where some boats are not used to these situations it can lead to a lot of confusion.
The answer is to give room and protest later if you feel you were wronged rather than shout the odds. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 9:33pm
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Jeffers, Well aware of it and why we set up on the inside on many occasions. But I'm talking slow moving lasers running by the lee on port. I was looking up their transom line having rounded as the B14. Their nose was variously 1.5 to 2 boat lengths from the mark and the B14 was a good 3/4 of a length behind transom line calling not room (and I mean the sprit not the bow), but starboard. Happened twice. The answer is for people to know and apply the rules. This was too much to be misperception just bullying. Because once the 3 lasers give room the damage is done.
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 9:40am
That's a matter of opinion. What's good for their race position is for them to decide, not you. Even if it did hurt their race position, a bit of luffing might persuade you to plan passing to leeward in future. A reputation for luffing is well worth acquiring as it tends to stop people taking liberties. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 10:25am
| Ok, so have we reached a conclusion that one definition of being daft in handicap races is to attempt to pass a slower boat to windward close enough to interfere with their air? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 10:49am
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When we first got into racing there was an older chap in a Laser who would do all he could to stop us getting past. He was a better sailor than me (and still is) but he knew that if we got past early, we would beat him on handicap. He luffed us, stuffed us and covered us at every opportunity.....We learned loads.
I learned that overtaking down/off wind requires thought about tactical stuff (instead of pedal to the metal dumbness). Also learned that upwind overtaking was safer and provided more opportunities so I needed to get my upwind sailing sorted.........I can now avoid most of these situations and am a slightly improved racer.
If you get luffed it's your own fault for being luffable IMO.
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Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 11:51am
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Hi
everyone, When
I started racing, a long time ago, there were the ‘Racing Rules of Sailing’ (as
they are now called) and the ‘Unwritten Rules of Sailing’, which was in effect
‘etiquette’ and ‘gentlemanly conduct’.
I learned these ‘unwritten rules’ by experience, from friendly advice
and by learning from my own transgressions. I soon got to know what was acceptable, and what was not
acceptable, behaviour on the water, albeit within the ‘racing rules’. I
also found that it is usually the same people, all the time, who don’t conform
to the ‘unwritten rules’, who either never seem to learn, or are just prepared
to take liberties. Maybe they just
don’t give a damn about the other competitors. It
happens at my own club and I can think of an 800 and a couple of Vortexes who
do it all the time, and they have been doing it for years. They never, ever, try to pass slower
boats to leeward – always to windward.
Furthermore, they never take a ‘hint’ (with a small luff to indicate to
them not to pass), a further ‘hint’, or even another ‘hint’, and then they are
not happy if they are stuffed up to windward with their kites stalling. If a
slower boat allow a faster boat to pass to windward without a response by the
slower boat, there is always a danger that other faster boats will get the
message and all try to do the same, so the slower boat is helpless and looses a
lot of time to a lot of boats. The
problem with this is that it causes unwanted bad feelings, and also encourages
people to get reputations as ardent luffers. From my own experience, at my club, I have found that this
behaviour never comes from the top sailors in the club, they tend to just crack
off a bit, sail past to leeward, and then choose their ongoing course. So are
these ‘unwritten rules of sailing’ a thing of the past or is it that a lot
of people just don’t care any more? There
again, maybe it’s just me that doesn’t understand. Ian (Yorkshire Dales S.C.) |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 12:31pm
The big trouble with unwritten rules is that they aren't written down, and tend to vary from place to place, so they are always a bit dificult to work out... At open events its probably better to rely on RRS and a dose of common sense, especially the thought that whatever you hand out you are liable to get back with interest. Mrs Bedonebyasyoudid may be out of fashion, but the principle still applies... |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 12:53pm
Spot on. I've been lucky enough to sail at several clubs, inland and on the sea over the years and there have been a few who just ignore the rules, never mind those not actually written down in club racing. What's always made me smile/grit my teeth is the fact that these same people often comply with all the rules at opens... so it's a very deliberate act when they don't in 'normal' club series races. |
Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 4:26pm
If the "unwritten rules" are things that are sensible conduct that can be derived from understanding the RRS, things that will help you in your race then fine. But you don't need "rules" for that really, just a sensible head. The main problem I have with unwritten rules is that the people that use them (in my experience) can tend to do do so for their own advantage only. When you're racing, follow the RRS and try and maximise your finishing position within them. Anything else will lead to conflict and confusion :) If someone stuffs you, and they're within their rights under the RRS to do so, tough! Just because you can't see the advantage of them doing so doesn't mean there isn't one! And even if there really isn't... tough! |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 6:16pm
Simple answer, the Lasers agree to witness each other and protest the B14 for not keep clear when they were not overlapped at the zone...the B14 gets chucked. This would be my interpretation...if you are not overlapped at the zone then being on starboard counts for nowt (I could be wrong there are other rules people who are far more knowledgeable that I around here). I would have hoped that sailing a performance boat like a B14 that requires a reasonable amount of skill they would also amass a reasonable amount of rules knowledge more for their own protection than anything else! If like you say it was deliberate and they were bullying then were are back to good old rule 2 again.....but lets not go there shall we.... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 8:29pm
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if there were two incidents with B14s doing this, then they were two different boats! We did get this wrong on one occasion (made the wrong call There definitely weren't any Lasers anywhere in the area when this happened! ------------- -_ Al |
), but on our incident the guy in the 100 reckoned our bowsprit had overlapped the Fireball concerned in good time- the Fireball sailor though was of the belief that bowsprits don't count for overlap. They don't count for boat length, true, but as the spinnaker was still hoisted and filled, it certainly counted for overlap. So, ignorance was met with ignorance.
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 8:46pm
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Al, I don't think it was you then.......!
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 8:48pm
I disagree - return to the point of certainty. The B14 is establishing, not the Lasers breaking the overlap, so the B14 should give room and protest. It is not a simple case of let them in and protest.
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