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water for starboard boat?

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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: water for starboard boat?
    Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 1:25pm
What comes out of this most clearly for me is that if you are on port at or near the start of a race, you really can't spend much time NOT checking for boats on starboard, and working out the effect they will have on the boats near to you. If you have a crew, judging angles and keeping an eye to leeward will be a primary task. That way, boat C sees boat D in plenty of time, hails boat B, who hails boat A and everybody has time to tack or avoid. Boats A and B should have seen the whole thing unfold, surely?

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 12:01pm
There was a collision with damage caused by C breaking the rules - damn right you should have protested. How else is he going to learn not to do something so b*****y stupid next time? The other thing is you need to hail protest immediately, not just say "do turns".

You were wrong against A, because you tacked in their water the same way you say C did to you, but if the PC found that you were forced to tack because of C you wouldn't be penalised.

Technically, BTW, since the collision caused damage a 720 is probably not enough: if serious damage is caused then the penalty is to retire.

"Serious damage" is not rigidly defined, but one possibility listed in the case book is "Was the current market value of any part of the boat, or of the boat as a whole, diminished?".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 11:56am
YES you should have protested
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Post Options Post Options   Quote x1testpilot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 11:46am
I fact Chris and I were "B". I never saw D. C tacked and I had no choice or time, I tacked instantly (no time to hail) to avoid, Not sure if C hit us, but we clonked A - we came off worst with a little damage to the bow. A didn't complain, but we did turns in case we were in wrong against A (were we?). Asked C to do turns several times, but C did not, claiming "what else could I do". I guess we should have protested him - however protests are rare at our club and thought we could still win the race (and did :)) and protest is always a risk, though I was fairly sure we would win. Should we have protested?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 11:43am
No, you don't *have* to hail for room to tack. You can let the sails out and stop, or do a variety of other things to avoid the obstruction.

But rule 13 prevents you tacking in someone else's water. If you want the exception to this rule 20 provides then you must hail.

As for obstruction: this is covered in the definitions. You do need to read and understand the definitions, otherwise the rules don't work. I believe that in the RYA publications the defnitions are at the front, which to my mind makes a lot more sense than putting them at the back like the ISAF rule book does.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 11:39am
Until C hails for room to tack she is leeward ROW boat on A and B. As such, she is obliged to give both A and B rom to keep clear should she change course, and, if she passes beyond head to wind, must keep clear of both.

By hailing, and giving both A and B time to respond, C switches off both of these obligations.

If C decides to dip below D, on starboard, she must give room to both A and B should they decide to do likewise. D then has obligations under rules 16.1 and 16.2

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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 11:16am
The question is does Boat C have to hail?

Rule 20 seems to say "a boat.... MAY hail for room to tack and avoid....." seemingly implying that it doesn't have to do it.

I'm assuming it does if it wants to tack.
(I'm under the impression that there is only one situation ever in sailing where you have to say anything and this is it?).

The other issue is that another boat that is hailing for water to tack is an 'obstruction' - again I assume so.

(PS I was crew in this boat with Martin on this occasion)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 11:28pm
If a boat tacks to avoid an obstruction without hailing, she breaks rule 20 in so far as she has not met the obligations that permit her to be exonerated from breaking a rule of section Aor rules 15 or 16.

In this incident C tacks to avoid D without hailing, she does not comply with the requiremants of rule 20 therefore the rules of section A and rules 15 and 16 apply.

B cannot assume that A has heard C's hail, so they should hail A

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by gordon

Not only is C required to hail, but she must give A and B room to respond. Once B hears a hail she should ask A for room to tack.

Rule 20.1(a) only obliges C to give B time to respond, not room.
 
If A hears C's hail and will have to respond before the hailing boat is able to tack, she is a ‘hailed boat’ in the context of rule 20.1 and she shall respond accordingly [without the need for B to hail A] (Case 113).
Originally posted by gordon


C almost certainly breaks rule 20.1, and 13.
 
C can only break rule 20 if she hails for room to tack.
 
There HAS to be a hail for rule 20 to apply at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 8:20pm
Thanks Gordon.  I can recall the day in a team race when I got Umpire penalised as b with no hail from C.  You can tell it still rankles from the fact I remember it!

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