water for starboard boat?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8490
Printed Date: 30 Jun 25 at 5:51am
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Topic: water for starboard boat?
Posted By: x1testpilot
Subject: water for starboard boat?
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 11:19pm
situation: Beating to windward just before start, A on port, B on port, pretty close, B to stbd and ahead of A, but overlapped. C, same relationship to B. C suddenly sees D on starboard and tacks to avoid. C is taking without any indication, B tacks to only just avoid big collision and hits A.
Who is in right or wrong?
B claims rule 13, effectively C cannot tack in his water.
C claims he has to tack and there is no need to hail and that A and B should know about D and have already tacked.
There used to be a hail of water for sarboard boat, does that, or did it ever, exist as a rule?
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Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 8:52am
I think Rule 20.1 is what you are looking for: room to tack at an obstruction. A right of way boat can be an obstruction.
Inevitably in a hearing I think you'd want to know more about the circumstances.
Did D change course or in any other way make it difficult for C to avoid them.
Could C have dome anything else other than tack?
Could B have done anything else other than tack?
How close were A and B, all sorts of stuff.
It seems most likely to me that C was asleep, didn't spot the right of way boat and crash tacked without the required hail, so most likely C cops a DSQ under rule 13 and B is exonerated.
However I can imagine circumstances in which almost any of the boats could end up with a DSQ - if D had changed course they could get a DSQ under 16.2 for instance, and if A had made no attempt to miss B but just ploughed in they might be vulnerable under rule 14.
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Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 11:36am
Basically there are many potential ways it could play out in the room, very few of them end well for C.
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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 7:07pm
Not only is C required to hail, but she must give A and B room to respond. Once B hears a hail she should ask A for room to tack.
C almost certaiinly breaks rule 20.1, and 13.
D may have broken a rule if either she had just tacked on to starboard, or changed course not leaving C room to keep clear, (16.1 or 16.2)
Was there a protest? If not, why not? It could be claimed that D deliberately broke a rule, thus breaking rule 2. In match racing she would probably have been given a double penalty.
Gordon
Gordon
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Gordon
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 8:20pm
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Thanks Gordon. I can recall the day in a team race when I got Umpire penalised as b with no hail from C. You can tell it still rankles from the fact I remember it!
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by gordon
Not only is C required to hail, but she must give A and B room to respond. Once B hears a hail she should ask A for room to tack. |
Rule 20.1(a) only obliges C to give B time to respond, not room.
If A hears C's hail and will have to respond before the hailing boat is able to tack, she is a ‘hailed boat’ in the context of rule 20.1 and she shall respond accordingly [without the need for B to hail A] (Case 113).
Originally posted by gordon
C almost certainly breaks rule 20.1, and 13. |
C can only break rule 20 if she hails for room to tack.
There HAS to be a hail for rule 20 to apply at all.
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 11:28pm
If a boat tacks to avoid an obstruction without hailing, she breaks rule 20 in so far as she has not met the obligations that permit her to be exonerated from breaking a rule of section Aor rules 15 or 16.
In this incident C tacks to avoid D without hailing, she does not comply with the requiremants of rule 20 therefore the rules of section A and rules 15 and 16 apply.
B cannot assume that A has heard C's hail, so they should hail A
Gordon
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Gordon
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Posted By: ChrisI
Date Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 11:16am
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The question is does Boat C have to hail?
Rule 20 seems to say "a boat.... MAY hail for room to tack and avoid....." seemingly implying that it doesn't have to do it.
I'm assuming it does if it wants to tack. (I'm under the impression that there is only one situation ever in sailing where you have to say anything and this is it?).
The other issue is that another boat that is hailing for water to tack is an 'obstruction' - again I assume so.
(PS I was crew in this boat with Martin on this occasion)
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 11:39am
Until C hails for room to tack she is leeward ROW boat on A and B. As such, she is obliged to give both A and B rom to keep clear should she change course, and, if she passes beyond head to wind, must keep clear of both.
By hailing, and giving both A and B time to respond, C switches off both of these obligations.
If C decides to dip below D, on starboard, she must give room to both A and B should they decide to do likewise. D then has obligations under rules 16.1 and 16.2
Gordon
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Gordon
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 11:43am
No, you don't *have* to hail for room to tack. You can let the sails out and stop, or do a variety of other things to avoid the obstruction.
But rule 13 prevents you tacking in someone else's water. If you want the exception to this rule 20 provides then you must hail.
As for obstruction: this is covered in the definitions. You do need to read and understand the definitions, otherwise the rules don't work. I believe that in the RYA publications the defnitions are at the front, which to my mind makes a lot more sense than putting them at the back like the ISAF rule book does.
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Posted By: x1testpilot
Date Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 11:46am
I fact Chris and I were "B". I never saw D. C tacked and I had no choice or time, I tacked instantly (no time to hail) to avoid, Not sure if C hit us, but we clonked A - we came off worst with a little damage to the bow. A didn't complain, but we did turns in case we were in wrong against A (were we?). Asked C to do turns several times, but C did not, claiming "what else could I do". I guess we should have protested him - however protests are rare at our club and thought we could still win the race (and did :)) and protest is always a risk, though I was fairly sure we would win. Should we have protested?
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I like to take pictures of sailing, but I'd rather be sailing!
http://www.LCSC.org.uk" rel="nofollow - LCSC.org.uk
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Posted By: Stuart O
Date Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 11:56am
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YES you should have protested
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 12:01pm
There was a collision with damage caused by C breaking the rules - damn right you should have protested. How else is he going to learn not to do something so b*****y stupid next time? The other thing is you need to hail protest immediately, not just say "do turns".
You were wrong against A, because you tacked in their water the same way you say C did to you, but if the PC found that you were forced to tack because of C you wouldn't be penalised.
Technically, BTW, since the collision caused damage a 720 is probably not enough: if serious damage is caused then the penalty is to retire.
"Serious damage" is not rigidly defined, but one possibility listed in the case book is "Was the current market value of any part of the boat, or of the boat as a whole, diminished?".
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 1:25pm
What comes out of this most clearly for me is that if you are on port at or near the start of a race, you really can't spend much time NOT checking for boats on starboard, and working out the effect they will have on the boats near to you. If you have a crew, judging angles and keeping an eye to leeward will be a primary task. That way, boat C sees boat D in plenty of time, hails boat B, who hails boat A and everybody has time to tack or avoid. Boats A and B should have seen the whole thing unfold, surely?
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