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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Sep 11 at 9:39am
Originally posted by Alto-Tim


 Of course going straight downwind is fine, until asymmetric sailing that's about all you could do.                            


As Jim mentioned, tacking downwind was well known before assys.  A LONG time before, in fact - as I sit here I'm looking at a mention of the technique in 1931, from ocean racing navigator Alf Loomis.

Since 505s are mentioned, I may mention that Westell himself wrote in (IIRC) 1958 that tacking downwind was normal in 505s in anything but the lightest breezes.
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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 11 at 8:26am
Originally posted by SoggyBadger

Originally posted by Ruscoe

Sounds a lot but its full carbon and will last longer competitively then most other boats.


A 30 year old wood/epoxy Osprey is still capable of winning the nationals, will probably see you out and can be bought for less than 2 grand.


Not quite the same thing, the Osprey does not allow carbon hulls IIRC, therefore the cost new is a hell of a lot cheaper, and a wooden boat would be competitive, simple!  Not the same in the 505's the rules allow more exotic materials to be used in hulls, i still think it will out last any composite Osprey and even a wooden boat if it is not stored indoors every winter.

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SoggyBadger View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by Ruscoe

Sounds a lot but its full carbon and will last longer competitively then most other boats.


A 30 year old wood/epoxy Osprey is still capable of winning the nationals, will probably see you out and can be bought for less than 2 grand.
Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB

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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by Alto-Tim


 505 ok, what about an Osprey.  a FD, a Hornet?All good boats.Oh what's the price for a set of sails for the 505?.If you have too asked the price of a new boat, you cannot afford it.


Price of sails is hardly different to any other class of a similar speed and type, Prices of boats £17k will buy you a new carbon boat.  Sounds a lot but its full carbon and will last longer competitively then most other boats.  The thing is with a 5o5 you don't need to buy new to be competitive, but if you do invest in a new boat (from £17-£25k) you are getting a truly quality product.  The fit outs on the Jess German boats are second to none, a real piece of artistic engineering.  You get what you pay for in this life!  Price for the informed is obviously not an issue either, just look how many sell round the world, look at the ages(sail numbers) in the fleet at any world championships and nationals for that matter.

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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by Alto-Tim

Of course going straight downwind is
fine, until asymmetric sailing that's about all you could do.

Gybing downwind and sailing hot angles predates asymettrics by about twenty years...
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 9:50pm
The RS400 and Laser  4000 bowsprits only pivot to something like 20degrees.
That 20 degrees makes a big difference on the 400, but it's small beer compared to the Alto, where the pole comes back what, 60 degrees at least? So that interests me. How often does it make a big difference?

Yes I understand your point about hiking, but like a lot of couples, my crew is not keen to trapeze.
Anyway, surely the helm still has to exert himself?
If you're going to have a trapeze, why not go all the way and get an RS800? Helming from the wire is not that hard if everything works.

Personally, I'm happy to buy a used boat rather than compromise (more) on other things.
Yes, it all costs money, but I see the yearly cost of a 400 and another boat as affordable if you avoid the first year depreciation. It would take more than a new boat to get me to the front of a nationals fleet anyway! I suspect I'm not alone in that I could buy a new boat if I really, really wanted to, but I don't see it as right for me at this point.

I like to see new designs like the Alto, but equally I want leve racing. Catch 22?
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Posts: 6 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Alto-Tim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 9:22pm
WinkRS400 ok, a bit tiresome on the legs, especially on a long beat or close reach,But a nice boat. I couldn't afford one new. And has just changed to this vinylester construction like the Alto I hear?.


Laser4000 ok, not particularly comfortable, a little bit top-heavy in the rig, Whoops! we are in a again, it's okay I've got my speedos on.

Do people worry about the weight equalisation at clubs?  They probably don't, I guess open meetings and nationals they will.Oh no we’ve got to pull it up the beach again, bit heavy.Can you buy a new Laser 4000?.

 29er ok, I can't remember, were they designed for 25 to 30 stone plus crew?It's always a good idea to run from one wire to the other wire on a tack, oh and be careful it's quite tippy.  I guess that's fine for 14 to 24-year-olds, a bit past that now, but still there's life in the old dog yet.

 B14 ok, a nice boat, bit tippy, a fair way from one tack to the other.  Whoops! my legs.hiking againThe spinnaker is quite big so you need plenty of room in a breeze.Nice and light to pull up the beach .What's the price for a set of sails and a new mast?.

 505 ok, what about an Osprey.  a FD, a Hornet?All good boats.Oh what's the price for a set of sails for the 505?.If you have too asked the price of a new boat, you cannot afford it.

 Of course going straight downwind is fine, until asymmetric sailing that's about all you could do. I guess we all like a change now and then.

 To see how the swinging sprit is working out in PY racing, don't the RS400 and Laser 4000  racing downwind have a swinging pole system like the Alto?They must have data over the years on those surely?                                       
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SoggyBadger View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by JimC

I've heard it said too, but never by an Olympic Medallist...


I remember it from an interview with an Olympic Gold Medallist but can't remember whether it was Rodney Pattison or Paul Elvstrom being interviewed.


Edited by SoggyBadger - 16 Sep 11 at 4:53pm
Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB

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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Roger

I've heard it said several times before that once you've qualified it's easier to win an Olympic title than a worlds.

I've heard it said too, but never by an Olympic Medallist...
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timeintheboat View Drop Down
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Posts: 615 		Post Options Post Options   Quote timeintheboat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 11 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by tickel



I have previously observed that all fleets weather big or small all divide the same. A few at the top with a chance of winning, a large average group then some tail enders out for fun.


So true and thanks goodness for that.  I suppose it must be possible to be a bit more quantitative by looking at the spread of results in say the top 10 of the 40+ fleets, or looking at what is the lowest position someone doing all the races is that got a top 10.

Most of us non-hot shots know who the usual suspects are and are prone to pecking order fever, but  relish the occasional nose bleed and having more boats behind than in front. And of course working your way though a big fleets where everyone can handle the conditions is nigh-on impossible.

What is probably a thousand years ago now I still recall being 4th to the windward mark at a big fireball Nationals, something like 34th at the gybe mark and in the toilet for the week overall - but what a feeling - 4th eh!! I've a few of those memories that stick out way more than a mid-fleet mauling all week.
Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else
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