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SI to Switch Off Black Flag Exclusion from restart
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Strangler View Drop Down
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Posts: 154 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Strangler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: SI to Switch Off Black Flag Exclusion from restart
    Posted: 25 Jan 11 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by gordon

An attempt might be made to use 64.1(c) to give a ROW boat exoneration from breaking rule 30.3. I'm not sure if it would work... by being in the triangle between ends of line and windward mark before the start ROW boat has broken rule 30.3. She must, if she knows that she has broken the rule, retire, in accordance with the Basic Principle. If she were to apply for exoneration she would have to demonstrate that, having been sailed over the line (and thus, unwillingly, broken the rule) she had sailed back and started correctly. But by doing so she acknowledges that she has broken the rule... Does anyone have a example of a Jury using 64.1c in this way

Gordon
 
It was not a black flag start but I was at a championship in 2000 where a P&S incident forced S over the line. He continued and later protested... and won. It affected the top 3 placings but after 8 pints of Guinness your not bitter!
Looking at the rule I see nothing that stops a protest committee from coming too this interpretation.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 11 at 11:24am
Originally posted by Brass

but remember it's a last resort rule to get a start away when the fleet is otherwise hopelessly unruly.

I wish it were always used that way... I've been at big open handicap events where they've gone for the black flag on the first start of the day and DSQd people who crossed the triangle gybing down to the start line when running late.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 11 at 10:55am
Originally posted by JimC

I dunno guys, it seems an extraordinarily high risk to start after being over the line on a black flag start, even if you were pushed over illegally, because if you don't win the protest you will be DNE. Better surely to sit it out and accept average points if you win iin the room.

I guess though it highlights what a lashup the whole black flag thing is and how badly the sport needs a better alternative. Its a shame I'm not smart enough to think of one!
 
I agree it's a high risk play.  It's even higher than you describe.  You cannot get average points in the hearing:  it will be a hearing of your protest, the best you can get is the other boat DSQ and you exonerated for breaking rule 30.3 by being in the triangle early.  If you don't sail in the restarted race, the exoneration will change your BFD into a DNS, which in a championship regatta is no change in points at all.  To get average points, you need redress, which depends on an improper action or omission by the race committee, damage by the rule breaking boat causing your score to be worse, rule 2/69 breach by the other boat, or giving help.  Except for a very faint chance on the rule 2 ground, it is extremely unlikely that you can justify redress.
 
I agree that the Black Flag Rule doesn't deal well with these problems, but remember it's a last resort rule to get a start away when the fleet is otherwise hopelessly unruly.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 11 at 3:28am
I dunno guys, it seems an extraordinarily high risk to start after being over the line on a black flag start, even if you were pushed over illegally, because if you don't win the protest you will be DNE. Better surely to sit it out and accept average points if you win iin the room.

I guess though it highlights what a lashup the whole black flag thing is and how badly the sport needs a better alternative. Its a shame I'm not smart enough to think of one!





Edited by JimC - 25 Jan 11 at 3:29am
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 11 at 1:00am
Originally posted by Andymac

I would only add that it would be advisable for the boat to inform race committee of intention to exercise its entitlement to sail in restarted race to ensure that it doesn't automatically incur a DNE, with the race committee failing to note its finish position (pending successful protest hearing).
 
Probably prudent to make the attempt, but I don't know how welcome that snippet of conversation would be on a RC Boat going flat out to organise a Black Flag restart.  Last time I was there, that involved taking up an engineroom floorboard to make a whiteboard to display sail numbers on <g>.
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 11 at 12:37am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by gordon

An attempt might be made to use 64.1(c) to give a ROW boat exoneration from breaking rule 30.3. I'm not sure if it would work... by being in the triangle between ends of line and windward mark before the start ROW boat has broken rule 30.3. She must, if she knows that she has broken the rule, retire, in accordance with the Basic Principle. If she were to apply for exoneration she would have to demonstrate that, having been sailed over the line (and thus, unwillingly, broken the rule) she had sailed back and started correctly. But by doing so she acknowledges that she has broken the rule... Does anyone have a example of a Jury using 64.1c in this way

However, if ROW can demonstrate that the keep clear boat deliberately infringed a rule, thus breaking rule 2, then ROW boat, as long a she retires from the race as soon as she is certain that she has broken rule 30.3, could claim redress under 62.1d
 
I agree that if there is no general recall, merely gaining exoneration for breaking rule 30.3 will not suffice:  Unless she returns and restarts, once the boat finishes she will have have failed to comply with rule 28.1, for which she cannot be exonerated:  she may have been compelled to enter the triangle early, but nothing compelled her to race on without returning and starting in accordance with the definition of start.
 
Even if there were grounds for redress for a breach of sportsmanship under rule 62.1(d), I think failure to return and start in accordance with the definition remains a fault of the boat requesting redress and rules out redress.
 
I think things are somewhat different where there is a General Recall.  In that case, if a boat is entitled to be exonerated because she was compelled to break rule 30.3 (by entering the triangle) by another boat (say a rogue port tacker) breaking a rule, then she is under no obligation to retire (and Basic Principle should be 'read down' to include 'unless she is entitled to be exonerated under rule 64.1(c)').  Once she is entitled to be exonerated for breaking rule 30.3, following the General Recall, she should be allowed to act on her entitlement and sail in the restarted race, and following a successful protest hearing confirming her exoneration, to be scored in the place she gained in the resailed race instead of DNE.
 
Thank you Brass,
I tried unsuccessfully the other night to post (a rather less well worded version of) what you state.
 
I would only add that it would be advisable for the boat to inform race committee of intention to exercise its entitlement to sail in restarted race to ensure that it doesn't automatically incur a DNE, with the race committee failing to note its finish position (pending successful protest hearing).
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 11 at 8:13pm
Originally posted by gordon

An attempt might be made to use 64.1(c) to give a ROW boat exoneration from breaking rule 30.3. I'm not sure if it would work... by being in the triangle between ends of line and windward mark before the start ROW boat has broken rule 30.3. She must, if she knows that she has broken the rule, retire, in accordance with the Basic Principle. If she were to apply for exoneration she would have to demonstrate that, having been sailed over the line (and thus, unwillingly, broken the rule) she had sailed back and started correctly. But by doing so she acknowledges that she has broken the rule... Does anyone have a example of a Jury using 64.1c in this way

However, if ROW can demonstrate that the keep clear boat deliberately infringed a rule, thus breaking rule 2, then ROW boat, as long a she retires from the race as soon as she is certain that she has broken rule 30.3, could claim redress under 62.1d
 
I agree that if there is no general recall, merely gaining exoneration for breaking rule 30.3 will not suffice:  Unless she returns and restarts, once the boat finishes she will have have failed to comply with rule 28.1, for which she cannot be exonerated:  she may have been compelled to enter the triangle early, but nothing compelled her to race on without returning and starting in accordance with the definition of start.
 
Even if there were grounds for redress for a breach of sportsmanship under rule 62.1(d), I think failure to return and start in accordance with the definition remains a fault of the boat requesting redress and rules out redress.
 
I think things are somewhat different where there is a General Recall.  In that case, if a boat is entitled to be exonerated because she was compelled to break rule 30.3 (by entering the triangle) by another boat (say a rogue port tacker) breaking a rule, then she is under no obligation to retire (and Basic Principle should be 'read down' to include 'unless she is entitled to be exonerated under rule 64.1(c)').  Once she is entitled to be exonerated for breaking rule 30.3, following the General Recall, she should be allowed to act on her entitlement and sail in the restarted race, and following a successful protest hearing confirming her exoneration, to be scored in the place she gained in the resailed race instead of DNE.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 11 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by gordon

Brass - I would hope, in your circumstances 2 and 3 that most Race Committees would fly AP, even in the last seconds before start.

On the biased line - I have seen several race officers, after several attempts at a start, bias the line at the committee boat end - not to to give a fair start but to make sure that they can read all the sail numbers!

If a large number of boats are over either the first boat over lead the charge - in which case the BFD is justified, or they were pushed over the line by the advancing horde. In which case, should they be penalised for getting in to such a position, or should the Race Committee suffer from a sudden outbreak of "Nelson's Eye". If the consensus on the committee boat was that the line was reasonably well set then I would go for the BFD.
 
Given the lack of really skillful and experienced race officers, even at a Worlds, I would not be surprised to see the PRO being preoccupied with identifying BFDs and watching the line, so that his or her first response when unidentifiable boats got over early in the last few seconds before the signal was taken up in making the decision about the discretion whether or not to signal General Recall, so that there was no time left to go to AP before the starting signal, and General Recall was the only thing left to do.
 
I absolutely agree that a better solution than writing a SI, is to rely on the race officer to come up with a 'legal fiction', that he could not be sure of the identities of any of the boats over early, thus no boats were BFD.
 
The mechanisms for 'undoing' BFD once numbers have been posted are messy at best.
 
I really don't think whether the line is 'good' or not is a relevant consideration.  I don't agree that a biased line (no matter how biased) forces any boat to be over early.  It is up to the competitors to assess the condition and make sure they are not over early.
 
Consider:  if a competitor requested redress because they claimed that the line was biased and 'unfair' and that it was an improper omission of the RC to have failed to postpone and reset the line.  I would contend that rule 27.3 "Before the starting signal, the race committee may ... postpone ... the race" provides a discretionary power to the RC, and that there was no impropriety in the RC exercising its discretion and not postponing.  There was no improper action or omission, thus no redress is available.  I think people get a little too 'precious' about 'fair' starting lines, and windward legs exactly into the eye of the wind.
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 11 at 12:51pm
An attempt might be made to use 64.1(c) to give a ROW boat exoneration from breaking rule 30.3. I'm not sure if it would work... by being in the triangle between ends of line and windward mark before the start ROW boat has broken rule 30.3. She must, if she knows that she has broken the rule, retire, in accordance with the Basic Principle. If she were to apply for exoneration she would have to demonstrate that, having been sailed over the line (and thus, unwillingly, broken the rule) she had sailed back and started correctly. But by doing so she acknowledges that she has broken the rule... Does anyone have a example of a Jury using 64.1c in this way

However, if ROW can demonstrate that the keep clear boat deliberately infringed a rule, thus breaking rule 2, then ROW boat, as long a she retires from the race as soon as she is certain that she has broken rule 30.3, could claim redress under 62.1d

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Posts: 154 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Strangler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 11 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by Brass

 If a starboard tacker was forced over by a port tacker your would be looking at exoneration under rule 64.1(c), rather than a redress:  a boat cannot be given redress for the consequences of another boat breaking a rule unless it causes injury or physical damage (rule 62.1(b)).
Slightly off topic.
I agree with your interpretation but am vehemently against the rule being allowed to cover the start line. As there is such a big advantage to being a length or two over there should be NO circumstances where it is allowed. I think the remedy for S is to restart [if no BF] and protest. Redress should be allowed in such circumstances after a successful protest.
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