Starting in Large/Quality Fleets - Tips

Jamie wrote

I would tend to agree with JamesD about gate starts (though I have only rarely done them, I was not inspired), potentially forcibly unfair on one boat. On the other hand I suppose potentially they can hand a massive advantage to the gate boat, so swings and roundabouts. Either way, it has the potential to be unfair by design. Personally I don't like that idea.  Please explain how this can be considered more unfair by design than a system that has starts where it is acknowaged that up to 50% of the fleet are over the line ( OCS ),  

This isn't the situation if the PRO controlls the fleet correctly. Weeds out the pushers and lets everyone else get on with it. The competitors in the fleet all have the opportunity to make the moves and make the best start. Choose their own course and decide on the strategy, the fact that some don't manage it is down to the competitors, lack of skill or lack of inclination, if you see someone cheating, then money where the mouth is time, put your little red flag up, that is what we are all supposed to do.

In a gate start the tactics/strategy of one boat is dictated to them, that is not a fair race. Like drawing a line round silverstone and telling lewis hamilton thet he has to keep his left wheels on it for the first 3 laps, while everyone else can get on with it how they like.

Unless possibly the gate boat is a non competitor sailed by ringers specifically for that purpose. OK why not!

I wasn't putting up a problem I was offering a solution to the problem, (If you can find a pair of willing sailors and a spare boat then go ahead, it probably would be the best way to run a championship.)

On a line start, the game is to play to the conditions. As in rugby, if it is pouring with rain and the pitch is a quagmire you play a different style of game than if you are playing on dry grass on a warm day. The same is true if the line is biased one way or the other, or wind/tide make the course one sided, the best sailor will adapt to the conditions better than mere mortals.  Very true & this is why most of us sail to beat the other sailor with our better skills!

I consider myself to be one of "us" here I try and beat other people using cunning and guile, and round the track I don't have them. But I can get a good start more often than not. Didn't say I was always over, just using the one skill I have. And I do not cheat. Occasionally I will make a mistake, I plead humanity.

The line and course is the pitch and your job is to use it to your advantage. It is a skill to get to the right place, it is a skill to pick the right side, it is a skill to protect your gap and it is a skill to get off the line cleanly with your options open. Totally agree It is also a skill, albeit a dubious one, to get away with being over the line. Totally disagree that it`s a skill it’s still knowingly cheating,

I mean that it is a skill to do it and get away with it, I don't condone it. (As it turns out Intonation doesn't come across in text.) My apologies. But like it or not, those who knowingly cheat and get away with it are skillful. The fact that we don't like the skill is irrelevant to its existence.

Just as it is a skill to get away with hands in the ruck (to over extend my rugby metaphor even further.) I think as a test of skill, which is what all sport should be, the line start is best. It is unfair to the less skilled, so be it, it isn't a competitive sport otherwise.

Nor is it a fair sport and seeing that most of the players in our sport are not professionals & are weekend hobbyist’s who go to 1 big meeting a year if any at all,

Then playing on a level playing field should be consided a right of all completors regardless of their ranking in the fleets & the rules are there to protect that rights of ALL..

After all YOU want the sailors around you to give you water when the rules say you have the right to it. Don't you?

I think you are making my point again, there is a level playing field it is up to the individual to go out and claim their bit of it. 

The rules do protect all, but the more confident people will be closer to the front at the start, the conservative people will hang back a bit. The playing field is only skewed by the players. Go and claim your spot at the front if you want it, don't criticise those who do it already.

I expect people to try and abide by the rules, just as I try and abide by the rules, when I don't I take a penalty, or get pinged by the PRO.   

To clarify, if anyone were to look at my race results you would see that I fall squarely into the "less skilled." category.  Sorry to hear that even after expressing an opinion that cheating is acceptable,

I have at no point said that cheating is acceptable. What I said (or tried to say.) was that being over sometimes is inevitable in a big fleet. At our last euros my helm and I made a mistake and we ended up poking our bow 6 foot over the line, I waved at the PRO and we went and watched the race from the naughty corner. It is impossible to tell exectly where the line is in a big fleet, vision is almost always impaired. If my bow is 6 inches (on a 20ft boat) over the line how am I going to know? Every now and again you will be over the line and genuinley not know. (Is it cheating not to just go back and re-start on the off chance?)  

knowingly cheating is offense to all other competitors!

Completley agree, knowingly cheating is down right wrong.

I can only assume that by the stunning silence that only Jamesd & Jamie had the gut’s to disturb that everybody else is happy that being OCS is the way to win & the associated message that it sends.

If you arn't OCS occasionally you arn't trying to be close to the line at the start. Every now and again if you try for pole position of the line you will be. Can you honestly say that you haven't wonderd if you were over and carried on? I commend you if you can honestly say that.

Is trying to be in the best position at the start cheating? I don't think so. Sometimes you will get it wrong and be early, if you get caught then you get caught, if you don't know that you are over and the PRO doesn't see you you will get a finish position then you got away with one, the law of large numbers evens out over time.

I think this thread is entirely too negative or maybe I have just been lucky to sail in law-abiding fleets.  Line starts are on the whole fine, individuals are normally identified and OCSed certainly at club and open meeting level.  The system is not broken.  I think as others have pointed out that they become problematic with big fleets and shifty breeze.  However, a good race officer with a strong policy on black flags will normally calm down the line pushers.

Gate starts are also fun, they have their own problems. They normally get a fleet away cleanly, but big wind shifts can really bugger them up.  People can occassionally slow down in order to avoid being gate boat but also sometimes to ensure they are the gate starter (Krister Bergstrom, 505).

Perhaps uniquely, Fireflies use both types at the same event at their Nationals. Both cause equal amount of post race discussion/ controversy.  If someone wanted to prove the idea that the whole fleet arrive at the top mark at the same time, then this would be a great fleet to do a bit of investigation on.