I always seem to struggle on a packed line - and I'm getting fed up with it!  I've got speed upwind, downwind, my strategy is decent 70% of the time...

But when I come up against a packed starting line I tank.  I get a clean start with good speed and room around me only 20% of the time.  It's getting me down, as at smaller open meetings I can nail it without any problems, but at big events I just get destroyed!

So, I've been trying to come up with ways to improve this - so I made a list of the things that I need to do in order to try and get a good start.  I figure if I  follow this religiously I'll reduce the number of times I turn a good position into an awful one before the race even begins.

Set up:

• Line transit
• Holding transit (a position a couple of boatlengths back in the position on the line I'm likely to start from)
• Acceleration test from stopped - how long, how far?  Add 3 seconds to the time to allow for messy waves, wind.
• Check drift rate and direction (tide)

So that's all the info one should need to get a decent start I reckon.

Then onto the sequence of actions:

• 2-1 Min look at how the fleet is starting to stack - if it looks like there isn't going to be a gap go and park up in one.
• 30 seconds to go.  Fairly stationary, bow level with boats around.  Hopefully just behind the holding position.
• 20 seconds, at the holding position, stopped, making sure that above all else the bow is level with those around.
• 15 seconds, get the bow out by half a boatlength, then down ready to go
• Acceleration time + 3.  Main in, GO!  Probably roughly 10 seconds in light conditions, 7 in medium and 5 in Max power/flat water.

So, has anyone got anything I should add to these lists?

How about general tips to help me avoid getting  parked up on the gun?  What about any left-field strategies, like reaching down behind the front row rather than parking up and holding?

A lot of this is in the head, stay calm, dont panic, have options if you can and in that last min or so dont be afraid to change things if it doesnt look good.

Also if you look unsure others will pick up on this, be confident and dominate the water around you.

My mistake when first doing big starts was to focus too much on being at the committee boat end of the line. More experienced racers than me would squeeze me so much that it took everything I had to just stay out of their way, let alone hit the line on time at speed. Boats that were mysteriously able to point way hiher than me seemed to luff me to a standstill and I hadn't room in the bunch to tack away without clobbering someone.

My solution was to look for less crowded part sof the line. 2/3 of the way between CB and Pin is generally less crowded and gives your boat and head more space. As said, clear air is king at the start. Starting down the line reduces your options for tacking for the port layline but if you have good speed round the course (and a OOD setting a good line) then you should be able to hold your own. Once you have done this a few times and have had good starts at the quieter part of the line you can use that confidence and start working back up to the CB end.

Also, what Craig says about foregoing the front row has merits. If the RH side of the course seems to have more wind then settle for starting late but being able to put in an early tack to the better side of the course.

Your problem, from what I read Ben (and I assume you sail Laser/Topper from your description of technique) is that perhaps you are focussing too much on the boat and less on the "plan". You need lots of plans. Certainly there is nothing wrong in the technique you describe.

By Dave Perry I believe, and should be available on Amazon

I'd say I am the biggest wimp in large fleets not cos I am pants at starts (probably true) but more protective about hitting other people's boats on the start line/area.

Practise makes perfect!

Try approaching on port. you can look for a gap tack under the windward boat and steal his room. no one sees you coming. works most of the time

never start next to a top guy, even if you are nat champ, as you will only make life harer and run the risk of being spat out the back.

keep it simple. dont over complicate it, dont aim to win the pin/boat as if you dont get it right its game over. just start conservatively. I aim to start in the middle of the pack at the favoured end of the line, that way you are covered WHEN you jump the gun. also as the beat progresses its a safe place to be as no one has a great deal of leverage on you. obviously in some cases, there is only one place to be and you have to be very confident in your slow speed boat handling to throw the boat around without moving it forward. this is something that no one practices, yet it is probably one of the hardest skills in sailing. worth ten mins a month practicing.

go early. try and calculate where the line is, with transits etc and work out how far it will take to get there. if you dont have a transit, and you are mid line, just go early. even if you are over, with a half decent fleet, there will be enough cover to not be seen and at worse you will cause a general recall. better to be early than late! and practice this at the club races opens etc, pushing the line all the time.

get the bow of your boat to fit in with all the other boats in the fleet. i remember someone asking why i was on the bow peeling off stickers 2 min before the start.......it was a black flag, there were big gains from being 3 foot in front of the others and we were the only boat in the fleet with a black sticker on the bow. we won that race.

be very very aggresive in both attitude and boat handling. intimidate other sailors so they know not to come near you. tell them that if they take your spot you will reach over them on the line and spit them out the back, and if they do, then spit them out the back, they wont do it again and word will get around.

we rarely bothered with line bias and transits. guessed what end was favoured, sailed down the line on port, found a space and just knew we were going to start 3 seconds before anyone else which normally makes up for being shy of the line. its far more important to come off the line in clear air, so dont worry about bias unless its a long line and very biased. keep an eye on the wind in pre start as well, this gives you an idea of what shift phase you are in for your beat.  

Hi bustinben

You should follow the advice of GRF it`s good stuff.

Thenewpete - what boat do sail & where?

Bustinben - when you do tank at the start, is there a consistent reason or outcome - ie do you usually get rolled, or lee-bowed out the back?

I've found pyscologically you sail where you focus. So, if 5 seconds after the start you are thinking "stay away from the guy to leeward!" then guess what, that is where you end up being sucked. You end up obsessed about the guy to leeward because you can see him and not focussing on what's happening in your own boat. 

However, if you're thinking "attack the guy to windward" then the opposite tends to happen. Because you can't see him, you focus totally on your own boat and getting height to windward / speed. You can gauge how you're doing by the sound of their bow wave or getting your crew to have a quick glance, but do not shift your focus from getting height / speed. One bad wave or missed puff will stuff you up totally.

Can't remember who said this but they said - "Starting is easy. Just pull your mainsheet in first."

If only!

mainly yachts now.

have done a fair bit in contenders and 470 though, amongst other things.

Sad to have lossed you to the dinghy world, you could have been a much needed inspiration to us all.

Hey Ho

So, firstly, is it breaking rules to know you are over the line and not go back, even if the RO doesn't know its you (answer, yes), and secondly, with a prestart attitude like that, do you find you are a bit of a billy no mates at the bar after racing? It seems to me that it is fine at international level racing, but for open meetings at a normal UK fleet moderating the attitude and the willingness to cheat would make your stay in a class rather happier. Or sail Lasers.

I think the initial question was in large fleets. not your  small 15 lasers at their grand prix event. I would push the line with 40+ boats and if i knew i was on the line, i would go early (maybe not as early) because of how important clean air is. Below is a quote from a brilliant article on starting, called starting on the B of bang, written by Andy Rice:

When I crewed John Merricks in the 470, you couldn't hold him back from the start. "We're going on six," he used to say, as he put the bow down and launched himself off the line a boatlength before anyone else. John used to OCS on a regular basis, often scoring two or three in a one-discard series during his formative years in Olympic racing. But at least it got him used to leading races and getting good finishing positions across the line, even if he didn't get the corresponding finish gun. As he matured, he tempered his starting approach, learning to pull the trigger just that tiny bit before everyone else. But it was probably better for his sailing to have erred on the side of trigger happy rather than a bit slow on the draw. Perhaps you could take a few risks too, now and again.

John Obviously had the same idea, or perhaps it was just a 470 thing lol.

To thenewpete & mike ellis just a quick question.

I am assuming possibly incorrectly that you are serious in your previous posts but here goe`s anyway.

So to knownly cheat & bully fellow sailors is perfectly sound advice & you would do this on a regular basis?.

Is that a correct or incorrect understanding of your posts?.

I look forward to your reply

Without wanting to be seen to defend either cheating or bullying I would like to point out that just because you are 3 feet in front of all the boats around you it does not mean you were over the line, it just means they might have been further behind than you. On a long line, no matter how good your transit is, it can be very difficult to tell and just because you know there was a chance you were over doesn't mean you should go back, it is a risk you have to take.

I do think though, if you know you were over you should go back because at the end of the day it is a hobby (for most people) and you are messing up other people's races.

As far as intimidating goes I wouldn't condone going as far as thenewpete as, like i say, it is a hobby and that is bad sportsmanship (imo). However, there is nothing wrong with being aggressive on the start line as long as you are sailing within the rules. Luffing hard to defend your space or dropping your bow to defend a leeward gap are a necessity and reminding people around you of the relevant rules to keep them out of those spaces is acceptable. I also think you should take into account location and the experience of those around you, against a close rival at a big event you can be a lot more aggressive than against someone with less experience or at a race that is purely for bragging rights.

Back to the original question, I'm a big fan of approaching on port with 1 or 1 1/2 minutes to go and finding a gap, preferably at least a few boats away from any of the top guys. If you sail 2 man boats have the crew tell you timiing and what the boats to windward are doing while the helm concentrates on the boats to leeward and speed / distance to the line.

Finally, like Roger and GRF say, if it goes wrong (even before the gun) change your plan, get out of any dodgy situation as early as you can and find a clear lane on the beat.

I always have the situation in the FD where in GB we start off small lines with a small fleet. When we then go to a euros or a worlds against the 70 to 100 others the whole game changes.

I am by no means a good standard sailor, mid fleet at best generally. but I do have more good starts than I deserve to and I have a couple of things that I have learned.

1. Don't submit to any percived fleet pecking order, whether a front of fleet or back of fleet sailor you have just as much right to scrap for pole position as anyone else on the water. 

2. Don't be afraid to start near a rockstar sailor. For one they will probably be in the right place(ish) and for two there tends to be a fear of starting by them (happens in the FD fleet anyway.) and for three even if you do get spat out the back once or twice you get to see how they do it. We tried it once lining up against a many times world champion, at a worlds, and I unfurled the genoa at exactly the right moment and my helm got the boat moving the exact gnats crotchet ahead of them and there you have it, one tow right to the front of the fleet on the back of their slot. I'll never get away with it again, but it sure tought me how do do it. I am only going to be a mid fleet sailor anyway, so what is there to loose. 

3. Look for a line sag, in a big fleet there will always be one and park in it, (just watch for people trying to push you and be sure of your transits.) I don't understand line shyness.

4. Don't hold yourself to a higher standard than the rest of the fleet, if you think you were close to being over then chances are so were many others, the rest will chance ther arm and go for it, so why shouldn't you. Going back on a marginal call definatly knackers your chance of a good result, if your start was good then carry on and see what happens, worst comes to the worst you see your number on a blackboard at the windward mark. It happens. 

5. You will become familiar with the black flag, (If your fleet is anything like the FD anyway.) everyone gets pinged on it every now and again, if you are brave the black flag provides the best opportunity for a good start if you can be less line shy than the fleet then away you go, see point 3 the sag will be much more pronounced here.

Anyway, I'm sure that there is nothing new there but I was bored and trying to avoid doing work.   

Edited to make it make sense!

Cheating is a strong accusation to make.

I'm sure etiquette is very different in top level international fleets compared to a UK open meeting.

I'm sure Pete is not saying "deliberately be over the line, try not to get caught, don't go back".

If you are really pushing the line, do you really know if you are just behind or just in front. All Pete seems to be advocating is minimising the chances of being recognised as over as you are doing your best to be bang on the line.

As for initimidating other people to keep out of your way ...... if that's bullying, then Ainslie, Percy, Pattison, Walker, Robertson, etc must all be bullies too.

If Pete is who I think he is, I did a course with a former helm of his a couple of months ago. On the water in an informal small race he was totally mild mannered, very gentlemanly, (very fast as well!) and we all had a very pleasant time. But talking to him about winning major events, he describes it exactly as Pete does.

If you want to win at that level you need to press home every small advantage you can. If Team GBR didn't do this, they wouldn't have brought home all those medals in the summer. Are they all cheats and bullies?

Cheat.......no.

have an edge........yes.

the aim of any start is to start with the bow hitting the line when the gun goes, but more importantly to have 2 foot on your neighbours. this takes priority! so in an ideal world a mid line start has a boat length of sag across it and everything works out ok, but higher up the scale, the sag disapears and you have to coach people to go forward as well.

so bert, if you were in a fleet of 100 boats, your transit was behind your sight when the gun went and at least 20 other boats are over as well, recall goes up, would you go back? probably not, 100 boats is a big wall blocking out the wind! If you look at any large fleet, in a general recall situation (whether the recall flag goes up or not) the top guy will always have their bow infront. call it cheating if you like, but the bottom line is, you cannot win without that edge and every top sailor from ainslie to the optimist nat champ will do what they can to acheive that edge.

as for bullying, i hardly think so! i believe its called pathetic in all scenarios in life, if you do not fight/protect what you have worked for.

Look bert i understand where you are coming from, but at the end of the day, if you sit back and let someone sail into your room on the line, they will humiliate you for it all the way up the beat similarly if you want to hang around behind everyone at the start, you are never going to do well in a race.

Its not in the S.I.'s if its not a sponsor of the event. not like peeling off a gul sticker from a 200. i dont think it would ever stand up JimC and the only chance they would stand is if you were caught over, and even then "they were peeling off and dragging in the water"

Club racing is different and you wouldnt be aggresive there, as you are not likely to get a pint at the bar. Racing at a high national or international event is different and being aggresive on the start line is part of it, you still have friends after, its expected. anyone read lawrence dallaglio (spelling grr) book? he loves the fact in rugby you are on the pitch stamping on each other and throwing punches, and after the match you still have a pint together and get on fine. Its the same in high level racing, people do it to win, its a sport, and it is fully expected to have aggressive people on the start, everyone is.

G.R.F, if someones tacking into your water, they have no rights if they are on port anyway. bear away hard (this is easier in boats without full battern mains, but bake sure the kicker is RIGHT off to help) almost parralel to the line and shut them out, they cannot come in the gap without hitting you on port. then when they bu**er off, crab back up to windward. it is a set back on the start having anyone trying to take your water, but dont let them, and try to make as much space back to windward and if all else fails go even earlier haha.  practice sailing without moving forward to develop these skills. if they to get in there, keep working hard to windward and your priority is to get your bow 1 foot infron of them. if you are infront, it doesnt matter whether they are 1 inch off your leeward gunwhale, they will go backwards within seconds.

A good example of the sailors attitude on the race course is the back cover of the dinghy show booklet from y and y, its a henri-lloyd advert with ben ainslie. check it out

Personally "verbal" intimidation / banter is a pointless waste of energy - those who try it are simply not racing their boat!

If someone starts that on you, then just ask yourself why they are doing it.Does Ainslie resort to banter.....Nah, I thought not.

He did say he was the only boat in the fleet with this marking.

I said that if you think you are going to be over ten seconds before the gun goes, you probably will be, I could have worded this a lot better. If you think you are over at ten seconds to go you can get well and truly clear of everyone else then and it will make getting back to the right side of the line a lot easier (as long as the fleet isn't huge and you aren't sat right in the middle of it... your start will still be crap but it will probably be better than otherwise). If however you THINK you will be over on the gun when you have 10 seconds to go there isn't much you can do in a big fleet, people behind will be pushing you up, and people around you will probably be over too, so you might as well just start as normal and hope for some luck, either that your transits wrong or that there is a sag making it seem like you are out in front (or that the comittee boat doesn't see you, if they have done your just going to have to turn round when you see your number on the blackboard, but you wont KNOW you were over until this point, so keep going).

Obviously you wouldn't try this at a small open meeting or club race as you would stand out too easilly and people wouldn't appreciate it. But at a championship there will be so many other identical boats around it is going to be much harder to get everyone who was over's number down that you might as well try your luck, and at a championship everyone is all in one tight line so the guys around you will probably be in a similar position, and finally at a championship e eryone is trying to win anyway so the attitude on that line is going to be very different.

Yes he does!

He is a perfect example of it. he will scream till he is blue if he thinks you are going to steal his room. no idea why you would try it tbh he would be the last person in the world i would line up against.

If you mean whilst racing then i know what you mean, and i just get on with the race and aim to keep out of trouble, but on the start line its a different matter.

I would say that the "team GB" sailors are certainly bullies - they are taught to be by their coaches, and many other sailors are very peeved off with it. Wasn't there a quote from someone who got pushed out of the medals that he would rather have had one point less so as to have been no threat? I would also think that they are clever enough sailors to switch that sort of behaviour off when they are away from the Olympic arena, but loads of yoof squad wannabes will have seen what they do and will copy it. Those who are less aggressive (but could well be better sailors) will be lost to the sport forever.

I should point out at this point that I am not a very mellow person in a boat, but there is a big difference between making sure you get what is rightfully yours and putting others off the sport for ever. In fact, as I get old, I find I do better if I am less aggressive towards my fellow sailors, and I enjoy it more. I'm pretty sure very few of this forum will be attending a Laser/470 international event compared to the number of teens we have on here who need to enjoy their sport.

I think that was more of a comment on the medal race format than the tactics used by the GB sailor (Paul Goodison).

Perhaps I should clarify - I sail the Laser radial and we all already push the line to a really stupid degree.  Like fraggle says - you can get like 8 recalls for a race, and that just takes the piss!  Maybe it's because I'm reluctant to take the mick that I'm struggling, and I should just sail to the boats around me.

Keep your bow 2 feet out and you can't lose right?

You have to sail to the boats around you; that is one of the basics.

2nd row in a fleet of Radials ... race is as good as over ...

That's some good advice.  I do think that it's mostly a mental problem.  I have to say, if I think back to my best open results last year I got overall results of second, a first, a second and a third in the opens where I DIDN'T try and win the start.  In each of those I was either well away from the "favoured" end on what I thought was a pretty even line, or vaguely near it but certainly not "in the mixer".

Maybe I'll reflect on that in the run up to the laser Q's in march...

When I get to a Q event I normally start thinking - can't make a conservative start, too many boats, always crowded...

Don't I bloody know it   It's so depressing, I'm really determined to sort this out  

Originally posted by bustinben Originally posted by Guest#260 You have to sail to the boats around you; that is one of the basics. 2nd row in a fleet of Radials ... race is as good as over ...   Don't I bloody know it   It's so depressing, I'm really determined to sort this out

Well understanding the problem is the first step in solving it

Good luck ... and don't be afraid of some some OCSs in warm up events ...

Sorry it’s took so long to get back to the thread but planes/trains & automobiles got in the way.

If racing is the be all & end all of your sailing life then the advice that I & some others find wrong is properly the only way you will be able to win because it is so common in racing today. But for me the advice seems to state that breaking a few rules is OK.

Thenewpete wrote

go early. try and calculate where the line is, with transits etc and work out how far it will take to get there. if you dont have a transit, and you are mid line, just go early. even if you are over, with a half decent fleet, there will be enough cover to not be seen and at worse you will cause a general recall. better to be early than late! and practice this at the club races opens etc, pushing the line all the time. The advice seems to me to be to knowingly Go early even when the most likely result will be OCS.

Thenewpete wrote

we rarely bothered with line bias and transits. guessed what end was favoured, sailed down the line on port, found a space and just knew we were going to start 3 seconds before anyone else which normally makes up for being shy of the line. its far more important to come off the line in clear air, I will assume that you are talking about line sag in the middle rather then just starting early.so fair enough.

M Ellis wrote

I will back up thenewpete, push the line. Really push it,

 If you are scared about being over at the gun in the last 10 seconds you probably will be but there's nothing you can do about it then so just sheet in at the normal time, hit the line at speed, looking confident and if you are lucky they won’t call you, or someone will cover you. If you are not lucky the recall gun will go. But if you keep sailing up the beat looking confident you might be able to put some doubt into someone’s head as to whether it really was your sail number they saw over. That appears to say that if you can put on a show of “who? me?” you will be able to take your Illegal advantage to the finish & that's OK

Tom J wrote

I do think though, if you know you were over you should go back because at the end of the day it is a hobby (for most people) and you are messing up other people's races. Agreed.

Jamie wrote

Look for a line sag, in a big fleet there will always be one and park in it, (just watch for people trying to push you and be sure of your transits.) Good advice get your transits & use them.

Gareth T wrote

Cheating is a strong accusation to make. Check the post below it’s a question not an accusation

I'm sure Pete is not saying "deliberately be over the line, try not to get caught, don't go back".

The first post would say to me that is exactly what thenewpete is saying, maybe wrong but that's how I read it!

Bert

To thenewpete & Mike Ellis just a quick question.

I am assuming possibly incorrectly that you are serious in your previous posts but here goes’ anyway.

So to knowingly cheat & bully fellow sailors is perfectly sound advice & you would do this on a regular basis?.

Is that a correct or incorrect understanding of your posts?

I look forward to your reply

Winging it wrote

I don't often get the chance to do big fleet starts these days, but this year's contender worlds could see about 100 boats on one line.  I'll be betting there won't be much worrying about mates or manners in there, and if I get the chance to push forward whilst hiding I'll do it.

I want to win. 

Do you think that it would be a Hollow victory based on not getting caught? Or a good victory based on good sound tactics? Of hiding better then the others?

Thenewpete wrote

so bert, if you were in a fleet of 100 boats, your transit was behind your sight when the gun went and at least 20 other boats are over as well, recall goes up, would you go back? If I knew that I am over then the answer is YES .no if’s no buts’

Bustinben

Perhaps I should clarify - I sail the Laser radial and we all already push the line to a really stupid degree.  Like fraggle says - you can get like 8 recalls for a race, and that just takes the piss!  Maybe it's because I'm reluctant to take the mick that I'm struggling, and I should just sail to the boats around me.

It may well be the reason However if you do get 8 recalls on some races then there must be something wrong with the way starts are taught to sailors in the first place.

At the end of the day I sail for the enjoyment of beating a fellow sailor on a level playing field & improving how I sail.

I know that I will be mid fleet at best ( due to ability & practice ) but when the advice appears to be go early & hope not to be caught, hide behind others & hope that your sail No wasn't spotted (( Jamesd) John Merricks 6 seconds early? ) It leaves me wondering where I would be if I was willing to “bend & redesign ”  a few rules when I felt like it?.

If only everyone thought the same as you Bert. The whole world would be gay and harmonious. there would be one political party, Fern Britton would have gone for a run and Abromovich's money would be useless in football.

Unfortunately its not. People are over-run by greed and are willing to do what it takes to get what they want.

Sport is no different. people cheat in every sport: football has its divers, rugby has its finger benders, motor racing has schumacher, athletics has its drugs and sailing, sailing also has the people greedy for a win.

Is it cheating?............ probably.

is it sport?.......... most certainly.

You are more than entitled to sail around sniffing the guy in fronts arse, and i respect that you believe in fair play. But for me, as long as everyone else is queueing up like a junkie waiting for a fix at the start line, i will to, because i am not satisfied with losing.

Am i happy about this? not particularly, but does anyone else give a flying ****? Nope, so im stuck with it unless of course; a) the committee boat starts the race by firing a loaded twelve-bore at the pin end, or b) i settle for second best.

I do not mean this to be of an offensive nature towards anyone and i mainly have Bert in mind as i say this. it is purely my view on starting/sailing/sport.

If only everyone thought the same as you Bert. The whole world would be gay and harmonious & would be a better place. There would be one political party Ah communism, Fern Britton would have gone for a run Why she’s beautiful as she is and Abromovich's money would be useless in football. 3^Rd in the table & 10 points adrift yeah you’re right there

Unfortunately its not. People are over-run by greed and are willing to do what it takes to get what they want. Would that be called bending the rules then? Or outside sport would it be called breaking the law?

Sport is no different. people cheat in every sport: football has its divers makes you proud of your team of lawn fairies don`t it? , rugby has its finger benders if they are caught then they punished / banned, motor racing has Schumacher he was fined for various offences but not enough. Granted, athletics has its drugs if they are caught then they are banned and sailing, sailing also has the people greedy for a win.

Is it cheating?............ probably. Not probably defiantly above you say “people cheat”

is it sport?.......... most certainly. Is it in the rules? or is it because people let it slide? & is that the way you want your sport to go? The same way as the “divers” have taken football?

You are more than entitled to sail around sniffing the guy in fronts arse, ( if it`s a nice tight arse in tight clingy neoprene deep sigh ) and i respect that you believe in fair play. But for me, as long as everyone else is queuing up like a junkie waiting for a fix at the start line, i will to, because i am not satisfied with losing.

Am i happy about this? not particularly, Then do something, stand up and said something! but does anyone else give a flying ****? Let’s ask? Nope, so I’m stuck with it unless of course; a) the committee boat starts the race by firing a loaded twelve-bore at the pin end, To much scatter but a rifle would be OK! or b) i settle for second best. You could do that OR C) Do something about it – protest.

I do not mean this to be of an offensive nature towards anyone and i mainly have Bert in mind as i say this.- none taken  it is purely my view on starting/sailing/sport.

Don't you think that by saying nothing you are allowing a corruption of the rules, The same set of rules that we expect our opponent to sail to but not necessary ourselves,   

Where will it all end?

The fact of the matter is Bert, that you cannot do anything about it. ITS SPORT! Im sure things like the black flag, OCS and and people watching from either end of the line were put in place to stop people jumping the line. but they dont work.

I may not think its right, but i will freely admit that i will sheet in and go at 5 seconds, because im 100% sure the guy next to me will go at 4, in which case im stuffed and that is not why i compete in any sport.

There is not alot you can do, apart from run gate starts, which are really unfair. Jumping the line is part of the sport, even if its breaking the rules, and the top sailors learn to do it without getting caught, and thats a skill and any sport is about rewarding skill.

If you cannot beat them (and in this case you certainly cannot), then join them!

I'd not thought of that advantage to handicap racing. Maybe it explains why my starting technique has gone downhill so much over the years!

In top events, videos are made of the starts which can, occasionally if the angles are right, prove to a jury that someone wasn't over the line when they have been thrown out. Do these same videos get checked over to see if anyone who was over got away with it, and have them thrown out?

Personally, I don't have too much problem with pushing the line and hoping not to get caught - that is something which has always happened and always will. Knowing you are over for sure in a fleet of 100 lasers is pretty difficult, and the silence at the finish will be punishment enough when you do get caught to make up for the other times. This is different to knowing you are over and not going back. It is the attitude of some sailors in the prestart, where it is felt that screaming obcenties and other boats and intimidation is actually "just part of the sport" and is fair game if it gives you a space on the line, and means that the same boat gives you more room next time. This appears to be something that is against the self policing spirit of sailing. It is almost impossible to protest someone over incidents like this, unless the committee boat is a witness, and has people on board who actually think it is wrong.

My take on this -

By all means push the line, as mentioned earlier in the thread, just because you are an inch or two further ahead of the guy to windward doesn't mean you are over the line, and in some fleets you can't afford not to push it.

But, if you KNOW you are over and keep going, you are a cheat, plain and simple.

Regarding the mind games/bullying on the line, that has to be taken in context with the situation, standard of competitors and the nature of the race. Defending your gap aggressively is par for the course in high level racing, although screaming and swearing is probably taking it a bit too far, but doing the same thing on a club race start line to a kid in a Topper would obviously be a bit unreasonable.

The thing we should all remember is that the philosophy of sailing is very different to almost all other sports (golf is the only exception I can think of) in that we are expected to police ourselves. If we break a rule, we are expected to take the penalty - whether it be turns for a port/starboard or going back when you're over at the start. There is a referee in football and rugby, if he doesn't ping you, the rule wasn't broken. Simple.

Imagine you were a member of a golf club (hard I know, but try!!). If you had this discussion in the bar and expressed the view that if no-one saw you touch the ball at the address then you've got away with it and all is cool, you'd be not very politely asked to relinquish your membership. Sailing relies on the same attitude, and if all you guys take the attitude "if I don't get caught it didn't happen" we might as well chuck the rule book in the bin. Think about it next time you call for mark room. If I ignore you and you can't find a witness, is that OK with you?

Neil

In the instance of the start there is a referee; the race officer.

If the RO can't identify all boats over it's a general; if not it's individual.

Good RO'ing is really valuable to enjoying an event; I'd rather a RO run a load of black flag starts whittling down the fleet than let a start go because it "looks fair" because it won't be  ...

Starting is part of the race.

The % of your result that is determined by the quality of the start depends on many factors.

But a big fleet and a short course puts a huge weight onto starting ....

Are you about to advocate gate starts for all events?

It was famously done at a 470 Worlds ...

And an Etchells worlds, not sure of the year but I remember the quote from the RO, he could identify the three boats that were behind the line

This is not a solution for most GRs as usually 50% of the fleet are over so best you can do is nail a few naughty ones and have another go ...

Chas 505 wrote

As if I needed reminding, I was on the PRO boat last year at Datchet for the RS200 open meeting.  About 50% of a 70 boat fleet was over the line....every time. Maybe the answer is to divide the fleet into smaller numbers so the problem can be dealt with. – possibly you could divide the fleet after the first race  into ¼`s then put the 1<sup>st</sup> & 3<sup>rd</sup> ¼`s together as a fleet & the 2nd & 4^th ¼`s together as a separate fleet then you would “in theory” have made the offender’s easier to spot & then black flag them.

At one point we actually stopped black flagging anyone - because we could only ever see about 3 of the 40 or so boats that were OCS (the ones actually wrapped around the committee boat)...and they were evidently not "leading" when the gun went.  To ping 4/5 boats in that situation wasn't reasonable - anyway, they looked like they needed the practice..! Surely by not Black flagging you are allowing the rules to be broken by consent & therefore the rules fail to be worthwhile– however I do understand your reasons.

Guest#260 wrote

Are you about to advocate gate starts for all events? If it stops the “false starts “from the top 50% of our “best” sailors of any given fleet then why not? It may not be the best starting procedure but it’s equally unfair to all!

So are we saying as a forum that starting OCS is not able to be policed properly and is not enforceable & as such is acceptable in any large ish fleet for any cup or prize?

Is my understanding correct? Even if my spelling is not.

Hooray, a post where I agreed with everything GRF said! Down to the bit about squaddie kids. Either GRF is calming down or I'm getting more of a grumpy old man by the day!

I've had a couple of gate start recalls that I can remember at Firefly Nationals years ago. One where there was such a huge windshift the pathfinder ended up sailing behind 1'2 the boats waiting to go, and once because a yacht decided to come through the start on Starrboard straight at the pathfinder, who held his ground. The yacht (a motorsailer thing) ended up effectivly head to wind along side the pathfinder. Personally, if I had been the pathfinder, I would have buggered off sharpish on seeing it coming, but it happened to be a very strong willed person on duty that day!

Seconded for GRF here.

I have NEVER done a gate start but have seen them demonstrated on the higher & faster start line DVD & think that they should be taught & used at large fleet meeting for these very reasons.

I do not think that they will stop the good sailors from winning but it will be un popular with some who are at the top now because it will take the advantage from the OCS sailors & tactical skill, sailing ability, hard work should start to show through to the higher level results.

This can only be a Good thing & to encourage sailors to sail to the rules rather then what they can get away with MUST also be a good thing? Yes? No?

Chas 505 wrote

The sailing rules don't say:

"Boats must sort of be behind the line at the gun - or at least not far enough ahead to get a clear advantage over anyone else".

They say behind the line. So how doe`s the FORUM think that the rules can be properly applied?

Also, I wasn't having a go at the 200’s; they are a successful fleet, who we hope enjoyed the sailing!  It just made the point that even with a decently set line (and steadyish wind) that you really can't guarantee a fair start off a line with that many boats. BUT it made the same point as Guest#260 & fraggle 50% of the fleet was across the line at the start & the start was allowed!

Do you think that a differant start style would be easier to police for OCS?

Please give ideas & reasons it may make the playing field more level & therefore better for all.

This isn't like a 100m sprint, where you can risk going on the "b of the bang" and give yourself a tactical advantage within the rules.  Here a tactical advantage merely means not getting spotted while breaking the rules. So you start to use pathfinder starts as standard? I for one think that is a good idea.

Gate starts are not fun.

Everyone has a good chance at a cleaan start, which is good in some cases, but leads to crowding at the top mark, fighting up the beat etc. i really dislike them.

Plus the poor bugger who has to start on port screws his race up unless there is something considerably advantageous to the right. He is on his own out there, cannot play even percentages etc, its a horrible thing to be made to do and i have seen people slowing down before the finish so they do not have to be gate boat  in the next race.

plus it is very easy to recall a gate start. you just have to be a bit early and sail very high rather than low and you will put half the fleet into/in fron of the guard boat. You cannot be penalised as the boats to windward do not have water on it and if they ask for room, they must retire or face protest.

They are very unfair for one person and a pain in the arse for the rest.

I would tend to agree with JamesD about gate starts (though I have only rarely done them, I was not inspired), potentially forcibly unfair on one boat. On the other hand I suppose potentially they can hand a massive advantage to the gate boat, so swings and roundabouts. Either way, it has the potential to be unfair by design. Personally I don't like that idea. Unless possibly the gate boat is a non competitor sailed by ringers specifically for that purpose.

On a line start, the game is to play to the conditions. As in rugby, if it is pouring with rain and the pitch is a quagmire you play a different style of game than if you are playing on dry grass on a warm day. The same is true if the line is biased one way or the other, or wind/tide make the course one sided, the best sailor will adapt to the conditions better than mere mortals.  

The line and course is the pitch and your job is to use it to your advantage. It is a skill to get to the right place, it is a skill to pick the right side, it is a skill to protect your gap and it is a skill to get off the line cleanly with your options open. It is also a skill, albeit a dubious one, to get away with being over the line. Just as it is a skill to get away with hands in the ruck (to over extend my rugby metaphor even further.) I think as a test of skill, which is what all sport should be, the line start is best. It is unfair to the less skilled, so be it, it isn't a competitive sport otherwise.

To clarify, if anyone were to look at my race results you would see that I fall squarely into the "less skilled." category.

I think this thread is entirely too negative or maybe I have just been lucky to sail in law-abiding fleets.  Line starts are on the whole fine, individuals are normally identified and OCSed certainly at club and open meeting level.  The system is not broken.  I think as others have pointed out that they become problematic with big fleets and shifty breeze.  However, a good race officer with a strong policy on black flags will normally calm down the line pushers.

Gate starts are also fun, they have their own problems. They normally get a fleet away cleanly, but big wind shifts can really bugger them up.  People can occassionally slow down in order to avoid being gate boat but also sometimes to ensure they are the gate starter (Krister Bergstrom, 505).

Perhaps uniquely, Fireflies use both types at the same event at their Nationals. Both cause equal amount of post race discussion/ controversy.  If someone wanted to prove the idea that the whole fleet arrive at the top mark at the same time, then this would be a great fleet to do a bit of investigation on.

First and foremost Thanks to Jamesd & Jamie for having the gut’s to stick their necks out and state their opinions & to justify them when no one else would.

Thanks also for GRF for stating that pathfinder’s starts have worked well when they have been used for big fleets if the water is big enough.

Jamesd wrote

Gate starts are not fun.

Everyone has a good chance at a cleaan start, Is`t that the point? Which is good in some cases, but leads to crowding at the top mark, So you prefer a system that allows you to have a clear run at the top mark providing you have cheated better then your opponents!  Fighting up the beat etc. Is`t that the point of completive sailing? i really dislike them. Why? because they are fairer to more of the fleet then YOUR preferred / easy to cheat with start procedure?

Plus the poor bugger who has to start on port screws his race up unless there is something considerably advantageous to the right. He is on his own out there, But will be on starboard when the rest of the fleet try to cross him  He cannot play even percentages etc, its a horrible thing to be made to do and i have seen people slowing down before the finish so they do not have to be gate boat  in the next race.

plus it is very easy to recall a gate start. You just have to be a bit early and sail very high rather than low and you will put half the fleet into/in from of the guard boat. Really! maybe that sort of start is all part of the tactics of a pathfinder start! You cannot be penalised as the boats to windward do not have water on it and if they ask for room, they must retire or face protest.

They are very unfair for one person and a pain in the arse for the rest. Unfair to ONE person – not sure about that! & a pain in the arse for the rest –---- translated doe’s that means fairer for the rest? And not so beneficial for you?

Jamie wrote

I would tend to agree with JamesD about gate starts (though I have only rarely done them, I was not inspired), potentially forcibly unfair on one boat. On the other hand I suppose potentially they can hand a massive advantage to the gate boat, so swings and roundabouts. Either way, it has the potential to be unfair by design. Personally I don't like that idea.  Please explain how this can be considered more unfair by design than a system that has starts where it is acknowaged that up to 50% of the fleet are over the line ( OCS ),  Unless possibly the gate boat is a non competitor sailed by ringers specifically for that purpose. OK why not!

On a line start, the game is to play to the conditions. As in rugby, if it is pouring with rain and the pitch is a quagmire you play a different style of game than if you are playing on dry grass on a warm day. The same is true if the line is biased one way or the other, or wind/tide make the course one sided, the best sailor will adapt to the conditions better than mere mortals.  Very true & this is why most of us sail to beat the other sailor with our better skills!

The line and course is the pitch and your job is to use it to your advantage. It is a skill to get to the right place, it is a skill to pick the right side, it is a skill to protect your gap and it is a skill to get off the line cleanly with your options open. Totally agree It is also a skill, albeit a dubious one, to get away with being over the line. Totally disagree that it`s a skill it’s still knowingly cheating, Just as it is a skill to get away with hands in the ruck (to over extend my rugby metaphor even further.) I think as a test of skill, which is what all sport should be, the line start is best. It is unfair to the less skilled, so be it, it isn't a competitive sport otherwise.

Nor is it a fair sport and seeing that most of the players in our sport are not professionals & are weekend hobbyist’s who go to 1 big meeting a year if any at all,

Then playing on a level playing field should be consided a right of all completors regardless of their ranking in the fleets & the rules are there to protect that rights of ALL..

After all YOU want the sailors around you to give you water when the rules say you have the right to it. Don't you?

To clarify, if anyone were to look at my race results you would see that I fall squarely into the "less skilled." category.  Sorry to hear that even after expressing an opinion that cheating is acceptable,

So you & me should sail in the same area of the rear of the fleet! I`ll keep an eye out for YOU! Do say hello.

I also wish to apologise to the people who have been offended by my idea that racing should be fair & that the rules should be applied across the fleet for all.

Nah I withdraw that I do mean to be offensive in the same way as knowingly cheating is offense to all other competitors!

I can only assume that by the stunning silence that only Jamesd & Jamie had the gut’s to disturb that everybody else is happy that being OCS is the way to win & the associated message that it sends.

This may be one of the reasons that alot of club sailors do not attend any big events outside their own club & if the starts can be cleaned up then more people may attend more away events which can only be a good thing for our sport?. 

At the Musto Worlds in Garda in 2007 we had 86 boats in one fleet & 12 races.

We had just one general.

I think, as Dan says; different fleets have different behaviours ...

I'll be at the Firefly Nationals this year, and, while I've not been for a decade or more, I can pretty much assure you that despite the gate start I won't be arriving at the 1st mark at the same time as the leaders...

I feel I have been somewhat misunderstood in what I have put here, please allow me to clarify.

So to clarify my position: 

If you know that you are over the line then you should GO BACK! otherwise, fair game.

Some interesting debate here online v gate and starting well v cheating.

Couple of points I'd like to follow up with:

1.  Like many rule areas satrting too is about perception.  One man's way over is another man's on the line!  That is unavoidable but as long as the RO applies the rules to ensure discipline then no problem.

2.  It would thereofre be very hard to prove that someone was knowingly OCS and therefore rule 69 them.

3.  All too often it is bad race management that leads to repeated recalls:  lines too short, too much bias, bias compounfing tide bias, or non-enforcement.  Even mis-timing!

4.  There is another way forward to help - and I will start a rules thread on it soon - use of V in the final minute.

Matt

Absolutely agreed Gordon.

The 3 boat line thing is interesting.  Have seen it once in J24s - my initial feeling was ? how will it be fair/consistent.

Actually a small/tiny amount of bias that favours neither end but does the middle slightly seemed to jelp in getting a notorious fleet on its way.