New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Tricky...proper course question.
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Tricky...proper course question.

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Ross View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 02 May 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1163
Post Options Post Options   Quote Ross Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tricky...proper course question.
    Posted: 25 Jun 08 at 5:28pm
I thought you could call water on any obstruction, regardless of your position in a race.
Ross
If you can't carry it, don't sail it!
Back to Top
winging it View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3958
Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 08 at 1:15pm
He may well have been sailing his 'proper course' but as I said originally, he can't just alter course when the overlap exists and try to shove me out of the way...
the same, but different...

Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6661
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 08 at 1:13pm
I still can't see any evidence the guy wasn't sailing a proper course when the overlap existed. If he'd capsized, for instance, he might have headed off on a bit of a reach while he sorted himself out... Rule 22 is a hard onme to prove.

And to be quite honest I can't see what his motive is supposed to be - its a pursuit race, he's in a faster boat, and he's ahead. Its game over unless the "slower" boat is something that has really dramatic performance on one leg or another, for instance the way a Canoe can take just about anything if the last leg is a beat, or a Cherub if its a real balls out reach.
Back to Top
tack'ho View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 08 Feb 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1100
Post Options Post Options   Quote tack'ho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 08 at 12:32pm

Sounds to me like Ian is right.  If you decide to discuss this with him again later, simply ask him why he was so far below his proper course prior to overlapping you to leeward, make it sound like your agreeing with him about you being wrong.   Sounds like he's the kind of chap who might juts smugly explain how he'd out thought you then hit him with the rule 22.2 whammy.

Arhhh I'm wasted I should have been a lawyer in a Perry Mason style show

I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
Back to Top
iansmithofotley View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 16 Mar 04
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 209
Post Options Post Options   Quote iansmithofotley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 5:03pm

Hi 'winging it',

It may be that Rule 22.2 applies, depending on the circumstances:

Rule 22.2 - A boat shall not change course if her only purpose is to interfere with a boat making a penalty turn or one on another leg or lap of the course.

If the other boat had already rounded the mark, that you were heading for, then I think that it was then on a different leg, and therefore, should not have purposely interfered with you. There again, I may be wrong.

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)

 



Edited by iansmithofotley
Back to Top
winging it View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3958
Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by winging it

Whatever the answers, I don't think he was entitled to  alter course as he did when he had been holding his course below me for sufficiently long that I actually believed it was his proper course.

It doesn't really matter what you believe I'm afraid. There is no requirement to sail properly. He can sail off his proper course for as long as he likes provided he gives you room to keep clear once he decides to head up to it.


The point is, he wasn't giving me room to keep clear, he was trying to shove me head to wind at the mark - it wasn't just a question of not being allowed water. 
the same, but different...

Back to Top
winging it View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3958
Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:06pm
I have to say that I tend to put a cynical interpretation on it - I had been leading the race for a long time and he had a lot to gain by stuffing me at the mark.
the same, but different...

Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6661
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by winging it

Whatever the answers, I don't think he was entitled to  alter course as he did when he had been holding his course below me for sufficiently long that I actually believed it was his proper course.

It doesn't really matter what you believe I'm afraid. There is no requirement to sail properly. He can sail off his proper course for as long as he likes provided he gives you room to keep clear once he decides to head up to it.
Back to Top
winging it View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3958
Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:02pm
The problem is, I have little idea where he came from - he says he was ahead of me and had already rounded B, but I did not see him pass me, hence the confusion and my thinking he was rounding the mark like I was.  I certainly did not see him up to windward of me during my reach down from A.

Also, the course was such that if he had rounded B and then got blown back to leeward of it, the most efficient course for him would not have been to go anywhere near B - he had been sailing to leeward of me for some time before the mark rounding incident and because he was in a Vago compared to my Pico, he sailed through my lee.  When he did this he was certainly within two boat lengths of me, so I would be invoking:

Rule 17.1  If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat.

What I would be asking him would be, why was he reaching down towards B - he must have sailed a good five boats lengths on that reach before showing any signs of heading up to tack - he only seemed to want to once he was in a position to stuff me at the mark, why did he not tack up and go behind me - a much more direct route to C than going out of his way towards B? and also, why did he not start sailing upwind as soon as he had recovered from his capsize?   Surely that would have been more representative of a 'proper course'?

Whatever the answers, I don't think he was entitled to  alter course as he did when he had been holding his course below me for sufficiently long that I actually believed it was his proper course.
the same, but different...

Back to Top
JohnW View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 07
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 552
Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:23am
If he capsized after rounding B and then drifted back below B in such a way that he subsequently had to leave it to port (ie his wake as a piece of string required him to pass that side) would he not be considered to be still rounding the mark?.

If on the other hand he had drifted down during the capsize so that his wake wrapped around the mark he would not still be required to leave B to port and therefore would not be rounding the mark.

As you say that he had not tacked I would think the first option applies and you could be in the right (not sure though).

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy