Tricky...proper course question.
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Forum Name: Racing Rules
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Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 2:27pm
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Topic: Tricky...proper course question.
Posted By: winging it
Subject: Tricky...proper course question.
Date Posted: 23 Jun 08 at 5:52pm
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It is a pursuit race. I am on a reaching leg from A to B on port tack. A faster boat approaches from astern and to leeward, also on port tack. I have a clear overlap on reaching B and call for water. He replies that I have no right of way and that he is sailing his proper course. He does impede my mark rounding but there is no contact. He is pretty angry that I got round inside him, arguing that he was sailing his proper course and that I had no right of way. On shore it transpires that he had in fact already rounded B (probably while I was doing one of my many swims) and was not approaching it as a rounding mark but was in fact on his way, having recovered from his own capsize, to C. (From B to C is a windward leg, he has not yet tacked but is still in the vicinity and to leeward of B, even though he has already rounded it.) His argument is that he was entitled to squeeze me out at B because he was sailing his proper course to C. I am fairly sure he is wrong about this - 'proper course' surely only is useable in the absence of other boats - but I was there. So I'm also fairly sure he also had to give me water at B - even though I was windward boat, surely he could not argue I had no right of way? Does the two boat length rule apply, even if we are (sort of) on different legs of the course? Or is it enough that he can't simply shove me up out of the way? Or am I completely wrong? ------------- the same, but different... |
Replies:
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 23 Jun 08 at 6:24pm
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I don't know for sure but I would think the two-boat rule doesn't apply because the buoy is not a mark odf the course for the leeward boat. If so that leaves a straight windward / leedward situation & you just have to slow down, let him go through then you're clear to make your mark rounding. Presumably its a Port rounding? Question I would ask myself is: What would I have done if I had known at the time that B wasn't a mark of the course for the other boat? ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Jun 08 at 6:25pm
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Well rule 18 doesn't apply since it only applies "when boats are about to round or pass a mark *they* are
required to leave on the same side". In this case clearly they aren't. So therefore it must be all about rule 11/17 and I reckon that means that he may sail *his* proper course. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 23 Jun 08 at 7:17pm
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Agree with Jim; He has rights to sail his proper course; you have to live with the fact it takes you away from where you want to go. I'm afraid you are in the wrong. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: JohnW
Date Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:23am
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If he capsized after rounding B and then drifted back below B in such a way that he subsequently had to leave it to port (ie his wake as a piece of string required him to pass that side) would he not be considered to be still rounding the mark?. If on the other hand he had drifted down during the capsize so that his wake wrapped around the mark he would not still be required to leave B to port and therefore would not be rounding the mark. As you say that he had not tacked I would think the first option applies and you could be in the right (not sure though). |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:02pm
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The problem is, I have little idea where he came from - he says he was ahead of me and had already rounded B, but I did not see him pass me, hence the confusion and my thinking he was rounding the mark like I was. I certainly did not see him up to windward of me during my reach down from A. Also, the course was such that if he had rounded B and then got blown back to leeward of it, the most efficient course for him would not have been to go anywhere near B - he had been sailing to leeward of me for some time before the mark rounding incident and because he was in a Vago compared to my Pico, he sailed through my lee. When he did this he was certainly within two boat lengths of me, so I would be invoking: Rule 17.1 If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. What I would be asking him would be, why was he reaching down towards B - he must have sailed a good five boats lengths on that reach before showing any signs of heading up to tack - he only seemed to want to once he was in a position to stuff me at the mark, why did he not tack up and go behind me - a much more direct route to C than going out of his way towards B? and also, why did he not start sailing upwind as soon as he had recovered from his capsize? Surely that would have been more representative of a 'proper course'? Whatever the answers, I don't think he was entitled to alter course as he did when he had been holding his course below me for sufficiently long that I actually believed it was his proper course. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:06pm
It doesn't really matter what you believe I'm afraid. There is no requirement to sail properly. He can sail off his proper course for as long as he likes provided he gives you room to keep clear once he decides to head up to it. |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:06pm
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I have to say that I tend to put a cynical interpretation on it - I had been leading the race for a long time and he had a lot to gain by stuffing me at the mark.
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:09pm
The point is, he wasn't giving me room to keep clear, he was trying to shove me head to wind at the mark - it wasn't just a question of not being allowed water. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 5:03pm
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Hi 'winging it', It may be that Rule 22.2 applies, depending on the circumstances: Rule 22.2 - A boat shall not change course if her only purpose is to interfere with a boat making a penalty turn or one on another leg or lap of the course. If the other boat had already rounded the mark, that you were heading for, then I think that it was then on a different leg, and therefore, should not have purposely interfered with you. There again, I may be wrong. Ian (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)
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Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 25 Jun 08 at 12:32pm
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Sounds to me like Ian is right. If you decide to discuss this with him again later, simply ask him why he was so far below his proper course prior to overlapping you to leeward, make it sound like your agreeing with him about you being wrong. Sounds like he's the kind of chap who might juts smugly explain how he'd out thought you then hit him with the rule 22.2 whammy. Arhhh I'm wasted I should have been a lawyer in a Perry Mason style show ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Jun 08 at 1:13pm
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I still can't see any evidence the guy wasn't sailing a proper course when the overlap existed. If he'd capsized, for instance, he might have headed off on a bit of a reach while he sorted himself out... Rule 22 is a hard onme to prove.
And to be quite honest I can't see what his motive is supposed to be - its a pursuit race, he's in a faster boat, and he's ahead. Its game over unless the "slower" boat is something that has really dramatic performance on one leg or another, for instance the way a Canoe can take just about anything if the last leg is a beat, or a Cherub if its a real balls out reach. |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 25 Jun 08 at 1:15pm
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He may well have been sailing his 'proper course' but as I said originally, he can't just alter course when the overlap exists and try to shove me out of the way...
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 25 Jun 08 at 5:28pm
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I thought you could call water on any obstruction, regardless of your position in a race.
------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |