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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by G.R.F

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by G.R.F

As far as the rules go again
without the little boats and drawings to look at, it sounds like your were
overtaking boat, and rounding a mark, so you had a duty to keep clear,
however once both boats are established on their "normal" course, then
windward boat would I apply I guess, however, not a lot of folk appreciate
what happens when the boat apparently ahead of and below them starts
to point seemingly higher for no apparent reason (lee bow effect, look it
up) they then whine and start accusations of sailing above proper course
luffing etc etc.


 


Remind which rule talks about "overtaking boat"?

 


It's typical of bad sailors scrabbling to use "rules" when they feel under
pressure and dont understand the situation.

 

Who are you suggesting is a bad sailor?  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by G.R.F

As far as the rules go again
without the little boats and drawings to look at, it sounds like your were
overtaking boat, and rounding a mark, so you had a duty to keep clear,
however once both boats are established on their "normal" course, then
windward boat would I apply I guess, however, not a lot of folk appreciate
what happens when the boat apparently ahead of and below them starts
to point seemingly higher for no apparent reason (lee bow effect, look it
up) they then whine and start accusations of sailing above proper course
luffing etc etc.


 


Remind which rule talks about "overtaking boat"?




I wasn't actually referring to "rules", this is clearly a case of
misunderstanding a tactical situation and the guy wants to apologise. It's
typical of bad sailors scrabbling to use "rules" when they feel under
pressure and dont understand the situation.

By the sound of it both those boats were rounding into a header anyway
which wold have given the leeward boat an advantage which he later took.

Rounding a mark you have a duty not to ram the boat in front and in any
case ramming into folk only impedes you own progress, better to dive
under them fast then harden up and crank on a lee bow and if you're
lucky enough for there to be a header occurring as did, then all the
better.

Isn't the guys request couched more in terms of conciliation rather than
arbitration?

Like I said, maybe I read it wrong.

Folk who win stuff do the best they can at all times to avoid rule issues,
they are a vexation to the spirit and bring in an uncertainty to the
outcome beyond your control - always better to avoid them.
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scowsailor View Drop Down
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Posts: 7 		Post Options Post Options   Quote scowsailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 8:35pm

Thanks for the replies so far. I think the mark rounding was "over" and "completed". We were setting off upwind back to the line.

Not sure about just before the mark. I think we came at the mark from different angles and the other boat was on the inside at the mark.

Brian
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 8:31pm

Once and for all (some hope) as far as the rules are concerned there is no such thing as an overtaking boat. Boats are either on opposite tacks or, when on the same tack, they are overlapped or clear ahead/astern. The relaitve velocities of baots are of no concern to the rules. At a mark boats are either overlaped or clear ahead/astern.

If you use the term "overtaking boat" in a protest hearing you immediately lower the credit that will be given to your evidence, as you have demonstrated that you do not know the rules.

Gordon

 

 
Gordon
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by Chris Bridges

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by G.R.F


As far as the rules go again without the little boats and drawings to look
at, it sounds like your were overtaking boat, and rounding a mark, so you
had a duty to keep clear, however once both boats are established on
their "normal" course, then windward boat would I apply I guess, however,
not a lot of folk appreciate what happens when the boat apparently ahead
of and below them starts to point seemingly higher for no apparent
reason (lee bow effect, look it up) they then whine and start accusations
of sailing above proper course luffing etc etc.

 

Remind which rule talks about "overtaking boat"?

Does not mention overtaking boat, but thats what it is, rule 12:

Originally posted by RRS

12 ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a boat clear astern
shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead.

My highlighting shows clearly that he does.

Your quote also makes no mention of overtaking.  It (essentially) states that you cannot sail into the back of someone.

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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 4:31pm
If you're clear astern, then you're not, at that moment, overtaking, now are you? Pedantic maybe, but as said, there is no mention of "overtaking" in the current rules- previous editions did.
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 4:26pm

Rule 12 makes no mention of an overtaking boat. In fact,  it also applies if  boats are stationary or even if BOTH are sailing backwards!

 

In the case outlined here, there is no information to tell us if the leeward boat has a rule 17 restriction - the overlap may have been established well before the last mark. In any case, the windward boat has an obligation to keep clear. If windward boat feels that leeward boat is sailing above her proper course whilst restricted by rule 17, she should keep clear and protest. However, a boat on a beat to windward would be deemed to be  sailing her proper course if she is not sailing above a close-hauled course.

 

Gordon
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Posts: 699 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris Bridges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by G.R.F


As far as the rules go again without the little boats and drawings to look
at, it sounds like your were overtaking boat, and rounding a mark, so you
had a duty to keep clear, however once both boats are established on
their "normal" course, then windward boat would I apply I guess, however,
not a lot of folk appreciate what happens when the boat apparently ahead
of and below them starts to point seemingly higher for no apparent
reason (lee bow effect, look it up) they then whine and start accusations
of sailing above proper course luffing etc etc.

 

Remind which rule talks about "overtaking boat"?

Does not mention overtaking boat, but thats what it is, rule 12:

Originally posted by RRS

12 ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a boat clear astern
shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead.
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 11:50am

Originally posted by G.R.F


As far as the rules go again without the little boats and drawings to look
at, it sounds like your were overtaking boat, and rounding a mark, so you
had a duty to keep clear, however once both boats are established on
their "normal" course, then windward boat would I apply I guess, however,
not a lot of folk appreciate what happens when the boat apparently ahead
of and below them starts to point seemingly higher for no apparent
reason (lee bow effect, look it up) they then whine and start accusations
of sailing above proper course luffing etc etc.

 

Remind which rule talks about "overtaking boat"?

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Guests View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 9:59am
I may be reading this wrong, but as I see it, you rounded then hardened
up and in doing so created a classic lee bow scenario, so there is no way
for him to point as high anyway, nothing to do with set up.

If he knew anything about wind and sailing tactics he should tack away
before you established the lee bow.

As far as the rules go again without the little boats and drawings to look
at, it sounds like your were overtaking boat, and rounding a mark, so you
had a duty to keep clear, however once both boats are established on
their "normal" course, then windward boat would I apply I guess, however,
not a lot of folk appreciate what happens when the boat apparently ahead
of and below them starts to point seemingly higher for no apparent
reason (lee bow effect, look it up) they then whine and start accusations
of sailing above proper course luffing etc etc.

Sounds like some gentle explanations of sailing theory as well as the rules
need applying.. Then again I could be wrong, reading about stuff and
seeing it first hand are entirely different.
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