rounding bottom mark -
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4275
Printed Date: 26 Jun 25 at 3:13pm
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Topic: rounding bottom mark -
Posted By: scowsailor
Subject: rounding bottom mark -
Date Posted: 10 Jun 08 at 9:42pm
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After rounding the botttom mark behind/ just outside of a slower boat of the the same class, he comes onto the wind and I do. Both on port. I can sail higher and faster, sailing my proper course and not luffing. As we come closer and closer together, I am thinking windward boat keep clear, the other boat is claiming I am luffing, not sailing my proper course and overtaking boat to keep clear.
We discuss the situation, do not agree, he tacks away and I also tack away onto starboard as a windshift dictates. After the race he is still unhappy with me, still claiming I was luffing and not sailing a proper course. Even though I was sailing a proper course for my boat, the same class as his but better set up, I would like to appologise if I was in the wrong and overtaking boat should have kept clear.
Clarification much appreciated. Brian.
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Replies:
Posted By: Spyderman
Date Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 1:25am
Whether you had a restriction, to not sail above your proper course or not, depends on how the overlap was established. If you came from behind and created the overlap withing two boat lengths to leeward, only then you have that restriction.
Can you remember the situation before rounding the mark?
It is however only that: a restriction. The r.o.w. rule (11) still applies to the windward boat! He is the one who has to keep clear.
Secondly, even with a restriction, it is the row boat who has the right to sail his proper course. There can be more then one proper course.
See also case 14 in the Case-book.
"Overtaking" is not in the rule book. When you are clear behind you have to keep clear. When you are overlapped on the same tack (even only with bow/stern) the windward boat has to keep clear.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 9:38am
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I think we can safely say that your friend to windward was not very familiar with the rules:-)
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 9:59am
I may be reading this wrong, but as I see it, you rounded then hardened
up and in doing so created a classic lee bow scenario, so there is no way
for him to point as high anyway, nothing to do with set up.
If he knew anything about wind and sailing tactics he should tack away
before you established the lee bow.
As far as the rules go again without the little boats and drawings to look
at, it sounds like your were overtaking boat, and rounding a mark, so you
had a duty to keep clear, however once both boats are established on
their "normal" course, then windward boat would I apply I guess, however,
not a lot of folk appreciate what happens when the boat apparently ahead
of and below them starts to point seemingly higher for no apparent
reason (lee bow effect, look it up) they then whine and start accusations
of sailing above proper course luffing etc etc.
Sounds like some gentle explanations of sailing theory as well as the rules
need applying.. Then again I could be wrong, reading about stuff and
seeing it first hand are entirely different.
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Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 11:50am
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Originally posted by G.R.F
As far as the rules go again without the little boats and drawings to look
at, it sounds like your were overtaking boat, and rounding a mark, so you
had a duty to keep clear, however once both boats are established on
their "normal" course, then windward boat would I apply I guess, however,
not a lot of folk appreciate what happens when the boat apparently ahead
of and below them starts to point seemingly higher for no apparent
reason (lee bow effect, look it up) they then whine and start accusations
of sailing above proper course luffing etc etc.
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Remind which rule talks about "overtaking boat"?
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Posted By: Chris Bridges
Date Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon
Originally posted by G.R.F
As far as the rules go again without the little boats and drawings to look
at, it sounds like your were overtaking boat, and rounding a mark, so you
had a duty to keep clear, however once both boats are established on
their "normal" course, then windward boat would I apply I guess, however,
not a lot of folk appreciate what happens when the boat apparently ahead
of and below them starts to point seemingly higher for no apparent
reason (lee bow effect, look it up) they then whine and start accusations
of sailing above proper course luffing etc etc.
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Remind which rule talks about "overtaking boat"?
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Does not mention overtaking boat, but thats what it is, rule 12:
Originally posted by RRS
12 ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a boat clear astern
shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead. |
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 4:26pm
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Rule 12 makes no mention of an overtaking boat. In fact, it also applies if boats are stationary or even if BOTH are sailing backwards!
In the case outlined here, there is no information to tell us if the leeward boat has a rule 17 restriction - the overlap may have been established well before the last mark. In any case, the windward boat has an obligation to keep clear. If windward boat feels that leeward boat is sailing above her proper course whilst restricted by rule 17, she should keep clear and protest. However, a boat on a beat to windward would be deemed to be sailing her proper course if she is not sailing above a close-hauled course.
Gordon
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Gordon
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 4:31pm
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If you're clear astern, then you're not, at that moment, overtaking, now are you? Pedantic maybe, but as said, there is no mention of "overtaking" in the current rules- previous editions did.
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Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by Chris Bridges
Originally posted by Scooby_simon
Originally posted by G.R.F
As far as the rules go again without the little boats and drawings to look
at, it sounds like your were overtaking boat, and rounding a mark, so you
had a duty to keep clear, however once both boats are established on
their "normal" course, then windward boat would I apply I guess, however,
not a lot of folk appreciate what happens when the boat apparently ahead
of and below them starts to point seemingly higher for no apparent
reason (lee bow effect, look it up) they then whine and start accusations
of sailing above proper course luffing etc etc.
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Remind which rule talks about "overtaking boat"?
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Does not mention overtaking boat, but thats what it is, rule 12:
Originally posted by RRS
12 ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a boat clear astern
shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead. |
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My highlighting shows clearly that he does.
Your quote also makes no mention of overtaking. It (essentially) states that you cannot sail into the back of someone.
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 8:31pm
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Once and for all (some hope) as far as the rules are concerned there is no such thing as an overtaking boat. Boats are either on opposite tacks or, when on the same tack, they are overlapped or clear ahead/astern. The relaitve velocities of baots are of no concern to the rules. At a mark boats are either overlaped or clear ahead/astern.
If you use the term "overtaking boat" in a protest hearing you immediately lower the credit that will be given to your evidence, as you have demonstrated that you do not know the rules.
Gordon
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Gordon
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Posted By: scowsailor
Date Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 8:35pm
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Thanks for the replies so far. I think the mark rounding was "over" and "completed". We were setting off upwind back to the line.
Not sure about just before the mark. I think we came at the mark from different angles and the other boat was on the inside at the mark.
Brian
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon
Originally posted by G.R.F
As far as the rules go again
without the little boats and drawings to look at, it sounds like your were
overtaking boat, and rounding a mark, so you had a duty to keep clear,
however once both boats are established on their "normal" course, then
windward boat would I apply I guess, however, not a lot of folk appreciate
what happens when the boat apparently ahead of and below them starts
to point seemingly higher for no apparent reason (lee bow effect, look it
up) they then whine and start accusations of sailing above proper course
luffing etc etc. |
Remind which rule talks about "overtaking boat"? |
I wasn't actually referring to "rules", this is clearly a case of
misunderstanding a tactical situation and the guy wants to apologise. It's
typical of bad sailors scrabbling to use "rules" when they feel under
pressure and dont understand the situation.
By the sound of it both those boats were rounding into a header anyway
which wold have given the leeward boat an advantage which he later took.
Rounding a mark you have a duty not to ram the boat in front and in any
case ramming into folk only impedes you own progress, better to dive
under them fast then harden up and crank on a lee bow and if you're
lucky enough for there to be a header occurring as did, then all the
better.
Isn't the guys request couched more in terms of conciliation rather than
arbitration?
Like I said, maybe I read it wrong.
Folk who win stuff do the best they can at all times to avoid rule issues,
they are a vexation to the spirit and bring in an uncertainty to the
outcome beyond your control - always better to avoid them.
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Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 11 Jun 08 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by G.R.F
Originally posted by Scooby_simon
Originally posted by G.R.F
As far as the rules go again
without the little boats and drawings to look at, it sounds like your were
overtaking boat, and rounding a mark, so you had a duty to keep clear,
however once both boats are established on their "normal" course, then
windward boat would I apply I guess, however, not a lot of folk appreciate
what happens when the boat apparently ahead of and below them starts
to point seemingly higher for no apparent reason (lee bow effect, look it
up) they then whine and start accusations of sailing above proper course
luffing etc etc. |
Remind which rule talks about "overtaking boat"?
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It's typical of bad sailors scrabbling to use "rules" when they feel under
pressure and dont understand the situation.
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Who are you suggesting is a bad sailor?
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