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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Under rated boats
    Posted: 27 Apr 06 at 1:21am
"implying 2 distinct hulls connected via a third (or more) frames / decks."

Well, I dunno. How do we define "hull"? Flicking through a bunch of definitions of "hull" seems to show nothing there that really sheds light on the subject of whether the Vortex has one or two hulls. Lots of the definitions (saying things like the hull is the frame or body of the hull, apart from the superstructure and rigging) could be read to say that any cat is a monohull!

Secondly, define "distinct". How distinct does it have to be? Obviously you CAN have a solid bridgedeck between two hulls, and it can all be an integral structure 'cause thats what cruising cats normally have. So a cat can have a massive full-length superstructure and be inseparable unless you've got a chainsaw around.

If I got a blank bit of foam in the shape of a Vortex and I kept carving away at the tunnel, making the tunnel bigger and the hulls more distinct, I must at one stage get to the stage where it's a cat, no? But there's no way in the world (apart from a totally artificial measurement) that you could work out when it goes from being a mono to being a cat UNLESS you use the measurement used for over 120 years- a boat becomes a cat when it has an air gap down the centreline.

Historically, there's no  doubt that when these sort of boats first came out (back in 1898.....not exactly a new idea) they were called catamarans and were banned from racing. There's no evidence that it was an anti-cat thing per se - NY had a fleet of Herreshoff cats racing about the same time - just that it wasn't what was ordered. The Moths did the same independently in Australia and the northern hemisphere decades later, and they both used exactly the same definition. So with respect to the RYA, they are well out of step.

Asking whether it can be sailed "like a cat" seems (for what it's worth) to just make the question more difficult. How does a cat sail? Many cats (cruising cats,  many offshore racing cats, Hobie 16s downwind, A Class in big breeze) sail with two hulls in the water. Some cats have centre sheeting. And of course scows sail fastest heeled (just like many cats) but they're not cats.
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 06 at 1:24pm

The general consensus from a Google on “definition of catamaran” is:

 

A boat with two parallel hulls or floats, especially a light sailboat with a mast mounted on a transverse frame joining the hulls.

 

Or something along the lines:

 

a vessel (as a sailboat) with twin hulls and usually a deck or superstructure connecting the hulls

 

So this is all implying 2 distinct hulls connected via a third (or more) frames / decks.

 

But from this link: http://dict.die.net/catamaran/

 


3. A kind of fire raft or torpedo bat.
 
              The incendiary rafts prepared by Sir Sidney Smith
              for destroying the French flotilla at Boulogne,
              1804, were called catamarans.         --Knight.
 
4. A quarrelsome woman; a scold. [Colloq.] 

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Matt Jackson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 06 at 1:03pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Matt Jackson

And the fact that the RYA say it's a Monohull.


Actually they don't. What they said in the document in question was that if clubs want to call it a monohull they can and if they want to call it a Catamaran they can.

I'm basing this on the fact that they list the PN in the monohulls section which I thought was a bit of a giveway (anoyingly I can't now find this document). Maybe you could point me towards the document you refer to.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 06 at 9:52pm

Also to jump in at the vortex's defence (dare i say anything) its actualy one of my more favoured big wind boats!!  I recall sailing one in a solid Force 4 and had barely started to depower it (and i weigh nothing), Loadsa fun in the big winds!!  Although ive not yet played with one with the kite attached so im thinking even more big wind fun!!  Wouldnt sail it in less than a 4 though......

Doug

p.s come on all you light weights out there, give the vortex a try!



Edited by Doug.H
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Post Options Post Options   Quote swirlything Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 06 at 9:01pm
As a vortex sailor I thought I'd butt in to defend the boat - it's not as bad as its detractors make out 

I't may bear some resemblence to a cat, but it sails more like a mono - center sheeted main, and the GNAV not the cunningham is the main secondary control, and upright is the fastest way to sail upwind.  The only time the boats are deliberatly heeled is downwind in light airs without the kite.

BTW the favoured class description is a "Concave Monohull"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 06 at 5:21pm

While we're about it, we can add the tunel hull scow moth to our list of under-rated boats.

Unlike a Vortex, it is easily possible to progressively heel the scow, e.g.  to windward when sailng on a run, or to leeward when sailing on the wind, which usefully reduces the wetted area when required. On the ther hand it can be kept upright for planing or if you get a bit nervous about stability, so it's fun when you're feeling brave, safe when you're not. It thus offers a unique and interesting sailing experience.

From what I've seen at our club, the Vortex is difficult to sail consistently on one hull (and certainly not to windward on a run), and as reported above, it doesn't speed things up anyway when you do - not very interesting.

I've often wondered whether the skiff Moths would have ousted the scows if the the rules had allowed more sail area - scows can generate appreciably more righting moment...

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 06 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by Matt Jackson

And the fact that the RYA say it's a Monohull.


Actually they don't. What they said in the document in question was that if clubs want to call it a monohull they can and if they want to call it a Catamaran they can.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 06 at 1:04pm

Originally posted by Matt Jackson

And the fact that the RYA (only the governing body for sailing in the UK that's who) say it's a Monohull. Lets not have this debate again please.

How on Earth can it be a monohull?  It has two hulls.  I think your strapline says it all!

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Matt Jackson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 06 at 12:50pm
And the fact that the RYA (only the governing body for sailing in the UK that's who) say it's a Monohull. Lets not have this debate again please.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote No. 5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 06 at 12:08pm
The vortex has four waterlines, that makes it a cat, surely. I think the vortex is accepted by monohull only clubs because it's dimensions and performance are within the parameters of a lot of monohulls.
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