Race rules advice pls

Originally posted by boatshed Thanks. If W is crafty, say sitting just below the start line creeping forward ahead of the start signal, W could decide not to start to take action to avoid L who is slowly approaching from behind

Whether or not and how to respond will depend on time to go, distance from the start line and other tactical considerations.   Doing nothing when tactically attacked is very rarely the best option.

W can see the hook coming: from a rules POV, she has no obligation to do anything until boats become overlapped, then she must keep clear, but tactically, she'd better start doing something.

Originally posted by boatshed and the gap will close then W can claim insufficient room to keep clear. L goes from the right of way boat to being the infringer because “room” is a universal defence if L decides to protest.

Room to keep clear under rules 15/16 is nothing like a 'universal defence'.

L can't just 'claim' insufficient room to keep clear.

She has to prove to the protest committee that there was insufficient space for her acting promptly and in a seamanlike way to keep clear.

In dinghys and moderate conditions .6 to 1 m between the boats when they became overlapped would be considered more than enough room for W to begin to keep clear.

If L got the hook closer than this, she can readily do a 'tag and release': immediatedly boats become overlapped, L bears away and accelerates, opens the gap to give W room, then comes back up towards the wind requiring W to keep clear, and from the moment it was possible to do so, W had better be doing all she could to keep clear.

If L is just the little bit competent, W is on a hiding to nothing.

Originally posted by boatshed    Without an umpire, I would think the “room” defence trumps L’s argument of W rule breaking.

Why? Depends on the evidence, and I think you are vastly overestimating the force of rules 15/16.

Originally posted by boatshed I wonder if it is possible to abuse the racing rules using techniques like these and indeed maybe these techniques are taught.

No. Unless a boat breaks the rules it is impossible to 'abuse' the rules.

Originally posted by boatshed ...... Thanks. If W is crafty, say sitting just below the start line creeping forward ahead of the start signal, W could decide not to start to take action to avoid L who is slowly approaching from behind and the gap will close then W can claim insufficient room to keep clear. L goes from the right of way boat to being the infringer because “room” is a universal defence if L decides to protest. Without an umpire, I would think the “room” defence trumps L’s argument of W rule breaking. I wonder if it is possible to abuse the racing rules using techniques like these and indeed maybe these techniques are taught.

Originally posted by Brass Originally posted by boatshed Originally posted by JimC The rules don't require you to guess what another boat might do differently. They do require you to be aware of what its currently doing. So you do need to allow for a right of way boat continuing on the same course and speed. You don't need to anticipate it suddenly changing direction for no obvious reason. Thanks for your explanation. Thinking of rule 11 and pre start ( windward boat keeps clear) . What happens if the leeward boat sailing a little higher gains an overlap from behind but the windward boat takes no action to keep clear until the boats are close together and then “time and opportunity” is the defence by the windward boat? Is the leeward boat in wrong? There's no such thing as 'time and oportunity'. 'Room and opportunity' was deleted from the RRS in 1995. What W is entitled to is room to keep clear in accordance with rule 15, which says ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear ... Room is defined as Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, ... while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way. So before the boats become overlapped, W is clear ahead right of way boat and is required by the rules to do absolutely nothing to anticipate that she will shortly become the windward give way boat. Depending on the performance of the boats, however it may be smart for to do so, but that's not a rules obligation. The moment boats become overlapped, W may need to begin taking action to keep clear of L. Maybe in your terms her 'opportunity' begins at the beginning of the overlap. If there was initially enough room between boats when the overlap began for W to take action to keep clear of L, then L has given W the room to keep clear that she is entitled to.

Thanks. If W is crafty, say sitting just below the start line creeping forward ahead of the start signal, W could decide not to start to take action to avoid L who is slowly approaching from behind and the gap will close then W can claim insufficient room to keep clear. L goes from the right of way boat to being the infringer because “room” is a universal defence if L decides to protest. Without an umpire, I would think the “room” defence trumps L’s argument of W rule breaking.

I wonder if it is possible to abuse the racing rules using techniques like these and indeed maybe these techniques are taught.

Originally posted by boatshed Originally posted by JimC The rules don't require you to guess what another boat might do differently. They do require you to be aware of what its currently doing. So you do need to allow for a right of way boat continuing on the same course and speed. You don't need to anticipate it suddenly changing direction for no obvious reason. Thanks for your explanation. Thinking of rule 11 and pre start ( windward boat keeps clear) . What happens if the leeward boat sailing a little higher gains an overlap from behind but the windward boat takes no action to keep clear until the boats are close together and then “time and opportunity” is the defence by the windward boat? Is the leeward boat in wrong?

There's no such thing as 'time and oportunity'. 'Room and opportunity' was deleted from the RRS in 1995.

What W is entitled to is room to keep clear in accordance with rule 15, which says ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear ...

Room is defined as Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, ... while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

So before the boats become overlapped, W is clear ahead right of way boat and is required by the rules to do absolutely nothing to anticipate that she will shortly become the windward give way boat. Depending on the performance of the boats, however it may be smart for to do so, but that's not a rules obligation.

The moment boats become overlapped, W may need to begin taking action to keep clear of L. Maybe in your terms her 'opportunity' begins at the beginning of the overlap.

If there was initially enough room between boats when the overlap began for W to take action to keep clear of L, then L has given W the room to keep clear that she is entitled to.

Edited by Brass - 17 May 23 at 3:01pm