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moomin View Drop Down
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Posts: 60 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moomin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rocking & Rolling
    Posted: 16 Aug 22 at 8:52am
I've failed to explain myself, I'll try again! If you are certain you are within the rules and can explain, coach and encourage others to improve their technique, absolutely go for it. But this is different to pushing the envelope into the grey area, I'm just advocating for staying a little clearer of the grey area when there's no one there to tell you you've gone too far, especially if you're at the front of the club fleet. All everyone else sees is a boat doing a horizon job every weekend with a load of iffy kinetics! Doing that isn't improving your sailing or helping anyone else.
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Posts: 168 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dakota Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 22 at 8:29am
Totally agree with this point .
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 22 at 7:51am
I don't agree that racers should be pre-emptively bowing down to the court of ill informed public opinion.

There's no reason for anyone to refrain from doing something they know is within the rules just because there's no judge there to not penalise them.

In Sam's OP, he asked about a perfectly legal combination of moves, which if well executed could get him a surf worth two or three boatlengths.

That shouldn't be open to the complaint that 'he sailed much faster than me therefore he must be cheating'.

Edited by Brass - 16 Aug 22 at 7:51am
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moomin View Drop Down
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Posts: 60 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moomin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 22 at 6:50am
I think you should consider the difference between champs with on water judging and anywhere else without. Most sailing we do is self policed, there's no umpire or ref and it's up to us to sail within the rules. If there's a judge on the water I'm more likely to push the amount of kinetics I do, partly as a learning process, it's not often you get the opportunity to test what's legal or not. Without a judge on the water I keep it still, I don't want to be that person who everyone complains about at the bar after sailing but it's just not worth the hassle of protesting. As someone upthread has said, rule 42 is a difficult one to define so keep it simple and friendly when sailing against the folk you have to see every weekend!
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 22 at 2:16pm
Judges on the water won't be able to apply those highly technical definitions. They have to rely on some, perhaps old fashioned indicators. Most simply, does a boat accelerate and maintain speed faster than those around it? Does a boat change fore and aft attitude or trim, consistent with 'climbing over its bow wave?

Maybe it's like pornography: we can't define it, but we know it when we see it.

Note, judges don't really have to decide whether a boat is planing or not, just whether planing conditions exist, which, admittedly, will in most cases be indicated by boats planing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 22 at 12:29pm
Brass, how is planing interpreted by judges?  Noting we are allowed to pump promote planing, but a. there doesn’t seem to be agreement among scientists about what it is and b. the definitions that do exist would require scientific experiments to demonstrate. 
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 22 at 1:13am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Brass

Its how the game is meant to be played.


Well, its going to be smack on the limits of what is permissible. As for how its meant to be played, well, who decides that anyway? Isn't RRS42 regulation and enforcement more about the art of the possible than anything else?

I think for those of us who are amateurs back from the leading edge there are two considerations. The first is that we should endeavour never to exceed the rule, which is difficult enough, and the second is to figure the comfort zone we personally want to sail in.


Well, isn't doing exactly what the rules allow and no more the fundamental of any competition?

I don't love rule 42. It bothers me that:
  • racers spend hours and hours practicing deliberately breaking rule 42, so that they can then spend more hours practicing to not quite break rule 42

  • kids in Optis, with that huge barn door of a rudder, where sculling is the obvious, logical and seamanlike way to control the boat are forbidden to do that.

  • we have produced a mini rules industry where the rule 42 interpretations for all the classes are nearly as long as the res tof the fleet racing rules put together.


But rule 42 is what we've got, and until some engineering genius comes up with a better rule, we're stuck with it.

Edited by Brass - 16 Aug 22 at 8:37am
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 22 at 1:03am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

At a National Championship I would not have a problem pushing the rules to the edge as I know that everybody else would be doing the same but, in this context, I'm racing a bunch of mates, most of whom don't race 'seriously'.


How you back off the competitiveness among your mates is absolutely up to you.

But just by way of comment, it seems to me that using strong legal kinetics is different from giving a mate a pass on a close cross, or sailing out from under when a mate sails blithely into a luff trap.

The first is just good sailing. The others are giving consideration to mates.

What I was driving at in my earlier posts was hosing down complaints about breaking the rules, not going easy on your mates.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 22 at 12:49am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Okay, accepted but the RRS are not 'The Law', The Law doesn't have a Rule 2

FAIR SAILING A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. The penalty shall be a disqualification that is not excludable


I think the very point of rule 2 is that it tells us not to go off philosophising after the 'spirit of the rules'.

We are required to find 'recognized principles', and 'clearly established' breaches.
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 22 at 9:22pm
Okay, accepted but the RRS are not 'The Law', The Law doesn't have a 'Rule 2 "FAIR SAILING

A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. The penalty shall be a disqualification that is not excludable" At a National Championship I would not have a problem pushing the rules to the edge as I know that everybody else would be doing the same but, in this context, I'm racing a bunch of mates, most of whom don't race 'seriously'.
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